Alan-Bradley vs. Siemens

ceilingwalker · Apr 15, 2013

I have had to reload all of my software on my laptop today as the graphics card died. So, I have spent about the entire day reloading/registering the software to the new laptop. Just getting through the first quarter, my request for the $11k for Rockwell Support is pending approval. Because I can not locate all of the disks I need for the Allen-Bradley products and the fact that my tech support agreement expired two months ago, I am getting no where fast.
I don’t want “stir the pot” but I have a question about Siemens vs. Allen-Bradley, PLC’s. Last year we rebuilt a system using our PLC5, a server computer and a client industrial computer. We paid over $10k for the all the software alone (Factory Talk Server/Client Site Edition and Factory Talk Editor for our HMI and SCADA). We then spent another $9k for our Rockwell Automation Tech support agreement. I am currently building a new control for an Airflow Bench and a Vacuum Furnace (two separate projects), using Siemens S7-1200’s. I have purchased the Step7 Software which will work for both my PLC Program as well as the HMI, for $400. I have called into Siemens technical support twice and have been charged nothing for it. I asked the technician, “don’t I need a service agreement for support” and he told me “no”. So here is my question, how does Rockwell Automation get away with charging so much for their hardware, software, and telephone support? I am barely a beginner using Step7 but from where I stand, it is every bit as powerful as the RSLogix and Factory Talk software packages. I must be missing something or I am even dumber than I thought if I continue to purchase and use Allen-Bradley controls. Now, if all of their “stuff” were made state-side, I would do it just to support the economy but, unless what I am told isn’t true, almost all of their production has been moved overseas.

The Plc Kid · Apr 15, 2013

I have found Siemens to be just as expensive and the support Sux.

No disrespect but you are working in a low volume so that's why you may see the results you do. When you are dealing with 1-3 milion in hadware /software purchases per project Rockwell wins by a long shot IMHO.

I do high volume buisness with both and that' what I am basing it on. I buy motors,large drives,switch gear,etc,

Siemens does have paid support. What you are using is introductory support or 8-5 M-F which is free but lower priority. Our Siemens support contract here is a little over 30K and almost useless when comparing it to Rockwell.

Just my 2 cent. My opinion is worth what you paid for it.

Ron Beaufort · Apr 15, 2013

I have had to reload all of my software on my laptop today as the graphics card died.

did you consider just taking the hard disk out of the old laptop - and inserting it in a new one? ... I've done that in a few emergency situations ...

jstolaruk · Apr 15, 2013

ceilingwalker, those prices sound high for RA products, how many seats are you buying for? I've only heard prices like that when a lot of seats are needed.
I just got done buying S7 pro, safety add-on, and Wincc and paid about $4K; annual price for RA toolkit was about a grand less.

bkottaras · Apr 15, 2013

The Plc Kid said:
I have found Siemens to be just as expensive and the support Sux.

No disrespect but you are working in a low volume so that's why you may see the results you do. When you are dealing with 1-3 milion in hadware /software purchases per project Rockwell wins by a long shot IMHO.

I do not agree.
I work as a contractor for a firm that does about the figure you mentioned with Siemens as well as AB.
I do all the Siemens stuff and also AB.
We do not pay more than $10K for the entire Siemens suite of software (SUS, 2 seats each) including Step7 pro, WinCC, Scout, Integrated Safety, Teleservice and such.
I have found their support to be outstanding, especially the motion group (Scout/Simotion).
We do not even have a contract, just pick up the phone and call.
A name and the company name and you're on the line for the next available engineer.
A number to call and they get back to you.
There's also an automatically generated e-mail with the case, contact person and can be used for further communication if need be.

Not to mention that their "knowledge-base" is "open to the public"!

We also have the same arrangement with AB.
My counterpart(s) do most of the AB dealing with tech support.
I wish they could say the same.
I've witnessed instances were we knew more about the subject than their support stuff.

Not to mention the software "highway rubbery" and the "tech connect" contracts for the same/comparable software suite.

I also have the software (SUS) for my company (definetely way low, low volume compared to the OEM) and no tech support contract, same results when it comes to calling it in. Never questioned about contracts and such, just name, company and a number for them to call back and I'm in business.

Not to mention that their "knowledge-base" is "open to the public"!

My 2(+2) cents!

ceilingwalker · Apr 15, 2013

The Plc Kid said:
I have found Siemens to be just as expensive and the support Sux.

No disrespect but you are working in a low volume so that's why you may see the results you do. When you are dealing with 1-3 milion in hadware /software purchases per project Rockwell wins by a long shot IMHO.

I do high volume buisness with both and that' what I am basing it on. I buy motors,large drives,switch gear,etc,

Siemens does have paid support. What you are using is introductory support or 8-5 M-F which is free but lower priority. Our Siemens support contract here is a little over 30K and almost useless when comparing it to Rockwell.

Just my 2 cent. My opinion is worth what you paid for it.

And this is why I posted, to hear from folks like you that have been doing this much longer and in a much larger capacity than I. Thank you for the input.

ceilingwalker · Apr 15, 2013

bkottaras said:
I do not agree.
I work as a contractor for a firm that does about the figure you mentioned with Siemens as well as AB.
I do all the Siemens stuff and also AB.
We do not pay more than $10K for the entire Siemens suite of software (SUS, 2 seats each) including Step7 pro, WinCC, Scout, Integrated Safety, Teleservice and such.
I have found their support to be outstanding, especially the motion group (Scout/Simotion).
We do not even have a contract, just pick up the phone and call.
A name and the company name and you're on the line for the next available engineer.
A number to call and they get back to you.
There's also an automatically generated e-mail with the case, contact person and can be used for further communication if need be.

Not to mention that their "knowledge-base" is "open to the public"!

We also have the same arrangement with AB.
My counterpart(s) do most of the AB dealing with tech support.
I wish they could say the same.
I've witnessed instances were we knew more about the subject than their support stuff.

Not to mention the software "highway rubbery" and the "tech connect" contracts for the same/comparable software suite.

I also have the software (SUS) for my company (definetely way low, low volume compared to the OEM) and no tech support contract, same results when it comes to calling it in. Never questioned about contracts and such, just name, company and a number for them to call back and I'm in business.

Not to mention that their "knowledge-base" is "open to the public"!

My 2(+2) cents!

I appreciate your "2(+2)".

PLC · Apr 15, 2013

Were a large tier 1 automotive supplier
Ive used Siemens and AB. I like the free support Siemens gives. Yes, Its free from 8 to 5. Is AB? H@ll no I cant get to an operator without a contract.
Give Siemens a shot- they are aggressive and make a great product

Ken Roach · Apr 15, 2013

My opinion on this is strongly biased, as a former RA employee in the technical support division, so I can only encourage you to make your own decisions.

I do want to make one correction: RA builds a lot in North America; ControlLogix and SLC CPUs are all built in Ohio, many drives, servos, and MCCs are built in Wisconsin, medium-voltage drives are in Ontario, sensors in Massachussetts. There are relay, component, and MCC factories in Mexico.

They also build overseas; MicroLogix and distributed I/O are made at RA Singapore, and you'll find origin labels from China, Japan, Switzerland, Germany, Great Britain, the Dominican Republic on various devices.

Siemens has a big distribution and support presence at Johnson City,TN, but I don't think they have any manufacturing Stateside. I'm certainly ready to be corrected, especially as regards the old Texas Instruments product line.

If I were in your shoes, I would visit the local technical college and see what they're training on. Familiarity from your available workforce is worth a lot more, in my opinion, than the purchase price of software or hardware.

geniusintraining · Apr 15, 2013

A couple of thoughts....

Support:
Siemens support has been SPOT on, every time free and very helpful
RA support was terrible at best and yes this is when I had the 24/7 support

Hardware:
They both make great products and really have no issues with either one, Siemens is better on the pricing

Software:
I have used both and like AB a little better but that is because I grew up programming them

Conclusion:
They both make great products and you have PLCTalk.net for support :site: so I think it boils down to programming time (labor) and what you like or want... I love learning something new so I would go for one I did not know but thats just me

ceilingwalker · Apr 15, 2013

geniusintraining said:
I love learning something new so I would go for one I did not know but thats just me

This is why I chose Siemens, something new. I would like more RSLogix5000 experience but could not justify the price tag for the Control Logix Hardware. Even the Compact Logix was quite a bit more expensive than the Siemens. Then I would have to buy another registration for RSLogix5000 as opposed to $400 and the software is on my laptop at work and at home. When I talked to the Siemens tech he was aware that I had installed the software on both computers so I believe it is ok.

rdrast · Apr 16, 2013

Here I use almost entirely Rockwell, but I will agree with the support assessment at least of Rockwell vs. Siemens. When I call Siemens about a problem, or even a question, I almost always get a competent and correct answer in a short time; usually the first call, but sometimes I have to call back with more information.

Picking up the phone to call Rockwell on the other hand (paid support too) is a complete waste of time. I cannot think of a single issue that I have ever called Rockwell on concerning ControlLogix, or FTView software or hardware that they have ever resolved. The knowledge base is also essentially useless; there is much more information here then on the RA knowledgebase.

ArikBY · Apr 16, 2013

Over here Siemens support is un friendly.A-B support is grate.both 9-5 free of charge.To bring someone in its mach easy with A-B.
A-B price is much expensive then Siemens.But since I prefer A_B(RSL 5K much better then Step 5) I use to buy only AB CPU's and use third party I/O and HMI.
I mostly use A_B CPU's Beckhoff I/O ans Siemens HMI.
The best value for money and quality.
But now I need 3 different support sources....

jmsmoreira · Apr 16, 2013

I don't think is correct to compate prices between S7-1200 and Control or Compact Logix...

jstolaruk · Apr 16, 2013

Siemens support was non-existent ten years ago, has gotten much better. Of course it helps to be working on Ford/GM/Chrysler projects as they get immediate attention.
Haven't had a problem with RA. Local distributor is McNaughton McKay and most of my questions have been servo related and they've got servo-specific guys on staff that are quick with answers and will be on-site when asked; sometimes they drag a local RA along.

Alan-Bradley vs. Siemens

ceilingwalker

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The Plc Kid

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Ron Beaufort

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jstolaruk

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bkottaras

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ceilingwalker

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ceilingwalker

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PLC

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Ken Roach

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geniusintraining

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