Arduino in industry...

(8{)} ( .)

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Hello all,

Came across this. I've been leery of using the Arduino in industry and this project is not for a major machine manufacturer but it is compelling. Any comments?

paulfurley.com/arduino-isnt-just-for-hackers/

(8{)} :) .)
(Yosi)
 
The Arduino is good for making products that is sold many times without much modification. PLCs are better for unique systems. There is nothing wrong with making PLC cards using Arduinos since the Arduino PLC card shouldn't need to change.

Personally I don't really think an Arduino has a place in the industrial world except for some specialized/cheap I/O. Anything that requires calculations should have at least a 16x16 multiply and a 32 /16 divide. The 80186 had that years ago. The Arduino is still a 8 bit processor.

A lot depends on what product you are trying to make. For instance in motion control we use DSPs or Freescale MPC5200s. In the future we will use even more powerful chips. Why? Because PLCs are getting to be so fast that they can do all the things an 8 bit micro controller without much effort. You should be thinking in terms of complementing the PLC or doing what the PLC can't do.
 
Yosi,
Arduinos are cute, and can be useful in certain situations. In the entertainment industry, we occasionally use an Arduino or a BASIC Stamp to do things like controlling RC hobby servos for animatronic effects. PLCs aren't so good at variable duty cycle PWM that RC servos need. Though opinions vary, I'm of the belief that they're mostly hobbyist-grade gear, and have no place where life and limb and other equipment is at stake.

Even if you subscribe to the "Arduinos are as good as PLCs" argument, consider this:

You and I need to control a project. You choose an Arduino and I choose a PLC. The project in question could use either successfully.

When your Arduino comes in the mail, you pull it from the box, grab a piece of perf board or a proto-shield, and begin soldering components to create an interface to the outside world. This is after you've breadboarded your circuit and made sure it will work. After some time, you now have a one-of-a-kind interface card that lets your Arduino control something larger than an LED. NOW you get down to programming, testing, and debugging. Provided you haven't made a soldering error, your project now works, but how do you mount it in your control cabinet? They don't come with DIN rail mounts, so you have to fab those too. What happens if you have a hardware failure? You're back to the lab bench to fire up the soldering iron again.

I have chosen a PLC. I pull it out of the box, clip it onto the DIN rail in my cabinet, feed it 24v power, land the I/O on the SCREW TERMINALS (no soldering required) and do my programming. While you're still soldering your custom I/O card, I'm done with everything and at the bar having a beer. 🍺 If I have a hardware failure (probably less likely in a designed and tested commercial product) I can have another one overnight. I reload the program, and I'm done with the repair.

Also beware of Cletus and Bubba. They're the neck-down hammer jockeys that will be tasked with repairing and maintaining the equipment into which you've placed an Arduino. How likely is it that your hand-soldered I/O board and open PCB will survive Cletus and Bubba's gentle ministrations? 🔨

BASIC Stamps, Arduinos, and PIC microcontrollers all have their place. They're a fantastic tool for teaching people, kids specifically, the basics of electronic and coding theory. A PLC is, at its most basic, nothing more than a microcontroller that's been armored against the real world.

As Peter said above, if you have thousands of copies of a thing to make, a microcontroller makes economic sense; you can design your control board to EXACTLY your specs. If you need one or a few, and need it to survive an industrial environment, be easy to maintain and repair/replace, than the PLC is your friend.

-rpoet
 
I love these arduino stuff, not only the UNO, but the rest too, and yes i do use PLC (codesys) for projects
PLC is easy scalable hardware, i make a complete unit in a day, complete with software, and graphic interface, costing about 1000 euro. the outputs are 24 volts direct on a module, costing 25 euro (3 euro each)
for this money i can not make it by myself.
My PLC (WAGO) is approved to be used in harsch environments like commercial ships. (i work for a big reefer company)

Arduino is used when having PWM signals for valves, I direct control proportianal valves (there is only a coil or heating element in these valves, just added a FET (and a diode). the output signal of the PLC was 4-20 mA so i made the driver with an arduino, nice scalable and adjustable. First on arduino then made it with atmega328 direct on a DIP chip. When DIP not available anymore i can use a small print inserted in the foot. (this for cost reasons (4 euro/or 25 euro) and as i only use one input and one output and i needed some small. but programming is done on arduino and then i move the chip over)

I have seen your solution with 4 arduinos. i do like it, it is nice and tidy, I am not o fond on the big print as it is breakable, i would have used 4 separate shields for this. On the shields some LED's to show status etc.

Internal any PLC there is a processor looking very much like an ATmega, so yes it is the way to go

I do not choose, i use them both.
 
In EU you cant use any do-it-yourself stuff.
Must have the CE mark. Must have a bona-fide Declaration of Conformity.

NB. My oldest kid has just gotten himself an Arduino kit. I am excited to see what he can invent by himself.
 
We have developed a proprietary device using the arduino. These devices are not machine control, but rather used in logistics.
We chose the arduino mostly because of the size, capability, and cost.

We have also been testing the Netduino, and the Raspberry Pi.

Basically, this class of intelligence does have a place - but be careful.
I wouldn't use it for machine control. Maybe for proof of concept, but nothing in a production environment.
 
I'm in no way advocating replacing PLCs with Arduinos but it can be another useful tool in our belt.

Cheers!

(8{)} :) .)
(Yosi)
 
jesper a CE mark, is nothing else as a piece of paper with a description of conformity to what guidelines and norms, you may make this yourself.
There is no control over it.
When making something connected to power the power supply needs a approval of any kind like DNV, KEMA but the machine itself does not have to be approved, only components with high voltage ( >50 Volt)

No computer has approval, only the power supply has, for example
 
jesper a CE mark, is nothing else as a piece of paper with a description of conformity to what guidelines and norms, you may make this yourself.
There is no control over it.
Yes and No. True anybody can put a CE mark on anything and they may get away with it, but if something goes wrong they had better have the paperwork to back up the CE claim, or they may be seeing the inside of a prison cell.

If you are assembling something to be used as a PLC then the most likely standard that it should be built to is:
EN 61131-2:2007 Programmable controllers - Equipment requirements and tests.
If the thing you make fails to work properly, or worse causes a dangerous state, they you will have a lot of trouble proving that it was fit for purpose unless you can show that it was built and tested to the above standard.

All electrical equipment must now meet standards for EMC emission and susceptibility.
Typically for an industrial environment you are looking at:
– Emission standard
EN 61000-6-4:2007: Industrial Environment
– Immunity standard
EN 61000-6-2:2005: Industrial Environment
An Arduino may be suitable for use in a domestic environment, but unless you test the Immunity for the device you build you can't put it in to an Industrial environment with any confidence of success. It might work or it might fall over every time that large motor gets started.
 
+1 what BryanG said.

The topic of this thread is "Arduino in industry".
Shooter what you suggest is "it is OK to cheat because no-one checks it".
The proper answer is do NOT use any hobby stuff in the industry.
 
i do not think an arduino is hobby stuff, it is same as most electronic stuff produced. Is your PLC approved? mine is by DNV,Loydds and may be used on ships, I can even have an arduino with approval, it costs but is possible.
and no i am not cheating, and yes i do use standards.
the inside of a PLC is same as an arduino, and yes i do agree it is used for learning mostly, an industry version of the ATMega328 is available, it is a simple PLC in an industrybox with terminals etc. cubloc and many others.
 
It doesnt matter if a PLC is made of basically the same small bits and pieces as an Arduino kit. The difference is the signature on the Declaration of Conformity.
A bona-fide Declaration of Conformity is not a trivial thing to make.
Even if you make a plant or machine made out of standard components all with CE mark, it takes quite a bit of work to make sure everything is correct and OK. Just because you put a machine together by components that all have the CE mark doesnt make it safe.

And that is just a 'normal' machine made with standard components. If you make OEM devices (like when you take electronic parts and solder them together and put them in a box), it takes a much bigger effort to make sure that ALL regulations are followed.

I speak from experience. I have once been interviewed by the police in connection with an incident. Because we had done everything properly, technical dossier, safety instructions for the end-user, hand-over documents, etc. we were found to be not be blamed for the incident.
 
To categorize a microcontroller-- whether from Atmel, Parallax, or Xilinx-- as hobby stuff is overgeneralizing. Granted, hobbyists and educators use them, but they are increasingly used in industrial sensing and control. As long as any applicable rules and regulations are, in fact, being followed, then there really should not be an issue, right?

I'm not advocating using them in place of a PLC in every instance. As rpoet stated, they all have their place. But here he also overgeneralizes in implying that there is no fit within industry for the microcontroller for a few applications, and that one has to fabricate everything to use in a panel. There are plenty of off-the-shelf items out there. And if you have to build your stuff while your budget keeps getting trimmed down over the course of the project, then using a micro and getting creative starts to come to the fore.

Personally, I use both. The microcontroller is perfect for specialty sensing and control. My two latest:

  • 'Continuity' check for the antenna on a passive entry vehicle. Essentially an coil in series with a cap. Generating the resonant frequency of the antennta from the micro provides proper detection and ensures the antenna is within tolerance.
  • RFID for fixture detection. Yep, plenty of industrial solutions out there. But I built three two-head systems with spare components and assemblies for under $600. Total. With removable terminal blocks and socketed components and DIN-rail mounts and everything!;)
Perhaps because I'm an end user and not an OEM, my take on this is a bit different.
 
Jordan,
If there is an off-the-shelf 24v I/O board with screw terminals, and a DIN rail mountable enclosure for the Arduino, I can't find it... and believe me, I've looked. If your solutions for using an Arduino in an industrial control panel are your and yours alone, that's an issue for me. If I can only buy those components from you, what happens if you go out of business or get hit by a cement mixer? I can buy a functionally equivalent PLC from dozens of vendors. Granted, there would be a learning curve with new programming software, but that's the case for any new-to-you type of controller.

The above being said, I'd love to see what you're using. Physically and electrically robust solutions using an Arduino are another tool in the toolkit for all of us. My comments about hobbyist-grade gear was directed toward the open PCB and hand soldered interface cards that most Arduino-based projects entail.


-rpoet
 
Jordan, I hear ya. I'd love to have something standard. Did you note what the printer manufacturer did? Build an interface shield of his own. Based on the quantity that makes a very cost effective solution. Shouldn't be to hard to find a standard circuit.

Cheers,

(8{)} :) .)
(Yosi)
 

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