Project in Finland.

Hi all,
My company is close to get a big project in Finland.
We are evaluating whether building the panel here in the US or in Finland.
I have a couple questions:

1. Any recommendations on where to build the panel? For example, regarding certifications, electrical codes, etc.
2. Any recommendations for panel builders in Finland?

Kiitos!
Thank you!

1. Panel must have approvals of the country where it will be installed. other than that and perhaps the different power grid, i don't see any other problem in building the panel at home.
2. i don't know anyone, but ABB is from their neighbour Sweden.

I always thought ABB were Finnish?! I've spoken to Finnish tech support before, and ABB packages are shipped from there.

FROM WIKIPEDIA:
ABB is a multinational corporation headquartered in Zurich, Switzerland, operating in robotics and mainly in the power and automation technology areas. It ranked 143rd in the Forbes Ranking (2010).
ABB resulted from the 1988 merger of the Swedish corporation Allmänna Svenska Elektriska Aktiebolaget (ASEA) and the Swiss company Brown, Boveri & Cie (BBC); the latter had absorbed the Maschinenfabrik Oerlikon in 1967. CEO at the time of the merger was the former CEO of ASEA, Percy Barnevik, who ran the company until 1996.
ABB's history goes back to the late 19th century. ASEA was incorporated by Ludwig Fredholm in 1883 and Brown, Boveri & Cie (BBC) was formed in 1891 in Baden, Switzerland, by Charles Eugene Lancelot Brown and Walter Boveri as a Swiss group of electrical companies producing AC and DC motors, generators, steam turbines and transformers.

I would built it in finland by a finnish company, to avoid difficult repairs. The people will have strong aversion with this american stuff.
make sure the drawings are standard european, and all equipment must have certification from finland. Use a Siemens or a Codesys PLC.
Schneider Electric Finland

Asiakaspalvelu
puh 010 446 615
for example

or advanta.fi


many more

Can I help you?

make sure the drawings are standard european

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That is the first PITA! Those drawings are absolutely horrible for the rest of the world - make no sense at all - spend hours trying to suss them out!

shooter said:

The people will have strong aversion with this american stuff.
make sure the drawings are standard european, and all equipment must have certification from finland. Use a Siemens or a Codesys PLC.
Schneider Electric Finland

Click to expand...

don't think it is aversion. me for instance, i'm not very fond of rockwell's AB PLCs, but i have been quite satisfied with their PowerFlex drives.

as for standard, don't know the standard drawing practice now, but i would recomend eplan.

As for PLC, maybe it would be best to go with siemens, but codesys does have a big community support (oscat.de)

Finland is an European Union Member so:
- At least ISO (CEI) and europeans norms (CEI 60204 for exampple). After, each country can require more restrictive rules for safety
- If (and only for) new machine or equipment, "CE marking" will be necessary

bob, what's bugging you? what drawings? i find it quite useful.

i can not find the CE mark here on the power station hihi.
and i think sep will help you great.

BobB said:

That is the first PITA! Those drawings are absolutely horrible for the rest of the world - make no sense at all - spend hours trying to suss them out!

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Personally I LOVE most IEC drawings. The reason you spend hours trying to decipher them is their unfamiliarity. Even JIC drawings have a learning curve if you've never seen them before. But once you know how to read IEC sets I think they're actually easier and make more sense. In the US we use the JIC symbol set for the most part, which I hate because it is hopelessly outdated. The JIC (Joint Industrial Council) doesn't even exist anymore! So basically we are using a symbol set that was created in a time before integrated starters, drives, PLCs, etc. That doesn't stop us of course, but the problem is beyond your most basic circuits every designer and/or engineer pretty much just does their own thing. So drawings from one company will look vastly different than drawings from another.

I like IEC because it has a far more masive standard symbol library and the symbols are more accurate as to the actual function of the device. The only "bones" to pick with it I have so far is that it shows push-button contacts as single-break contacts like on an ice cube relay even though these are typically a double-break style (same with contactors). That and the fact that they're typically done in landscape orientation so instead of flipping through the prints like a book you have to hold them awkwardly and flip up.

I hated IEC drawings at first, but now that I'm used to them, I can navigate them as easily as I can a JIC set if they're done well.

seppoalanen said:

Can I help you?

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Sure you can!

I really appreciate all your comments!

Please correct me if I'm wrong:

• I will need CE components and the whole control panel CE certified.
• What about CEI?
• I have to create IEC drawings, and the only difference with the "american" drawings are the electrical symbols.

Elcan said:

• I have to create IEC drawings, and the only difference with the "american" drawings are the electrical symbols.

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Not only. The orientation of the schematics ladder (IEC drawings stick to horizontal ladder while American ones are usually vertical), the labelling of the components, cross-referencing... Better to consult someone familiar with IEC drawing standards and practices - it may end up being cheaper than going through the learning curve on your own. Different wire and cable standards. Different requirements for machine safety and electromagnetic radiation (hence shielding and filtering).

If subcontracting panel builds in Finland may be too expensive, you may possibly check the neighboring Estonia or Russia.