Dirty Jobs' Mike Rowe on the high cost of college

http://reason.com/reasontv/2013/12/13/dirty-jobs-mike-rowe-on-the-high-cost-of

Interesting actual interview about college vs. blue collar occupations, philosophy of life, etc. Forty-one minutes.

Great post. I completely agree, although I do believe in higher education as it does prepare one to really "learn" well in future settings. That being said it really isn't for everyone and it doesn't benefit everyone in the same way. I know countless grads who are "unable" to find work. I was in Alberta Canada and I saw more job postings and positions that need to be filled.

I think the largest problem is that everyone believes that they are entitled to a good job after completing 2 or 4 years of post secondary. Must have something to do with what Mike Rowe is saying about the values that people are brought up with. Either way, I can completely agree with slogan "work smart and hard"


Thanks for the link, will be sharing this for sure.

Mike Rowe knows what's up.

My generation (born in '85) and, from what I gather, the one before me (maybe 2), we're told that we all had to go to college or else suffer the woes of backbreaking thankless mindless manual labor and poverty. Most of us listened and went out and sold our souls for that paper. Then graduated to join the teeming masses of other degrees professionals who are all too good for the trades. And now we see tradesman making more money than engineers. Supply and demand. People who are willing to work smart and HARD, are in high demand and low supply, so they cost a lot.

I encourage young directionless people to consider being a welder, electrician, machinist, or like me, a field service tech. These jobs are actually (IMO) more fulfilling than sitting in a cubicle wearing slacks. And you make just as much money in many cases.

strantor said:

(born in '85)

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Well that was a real buzz kill

This is a little old but its still interesting http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/fa...-pays-college-students-drop/story?id=13693632

I personally like and get more out of courses shorter then a few weeks, Ron Beaufort has a 1 week class that I think is great, going to something like that once a year is perfect... of course someone needs the basic skills first and a 2 year school may be good enough and then some on the job training

I have taken Siemens, AMK, Allen Bradley, Mitsubishi and a few others that were anywhere from one day to two weeks, these have helped me the most

Unless you are going to be a doctor or some thing along that line I don't think spending 100k plus has a large enough ROI to make it worthwhile

geniusintraining said:

Well that was a real buzz kill

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Not sure what you mean? Am I too young/make you feel old or what?

The real problem is one size doesn't fit all, but the media and counselors try to make that the case.

I was lucky - I found a profession I love, and I was able to make a living at it. The cost of college was paid for years ago, and I don't regret it a bit.

If you are in a profession that requires certain kinds of expertise then you can learn more in four years of college than you can in eight years of work - in general, of course. And in any profession you need actual experience to understand the uses of what you learned in college.

If you want to work in a trade then you need some "book learning" but you can learn fastest by doing it. I know a lot of guys who love their work and have never been to college.

My advice to my kids was to find a profession that they enjoyed, whether that meant college or not. Then I told them to do whatever it took to be good at that profession.

Daddy always told me "A good man will always have a job." I've never had reason to doubt that.

strantor said:

Not sure what you mean? Am I too young/make you feel old or what?

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The year you were born was my first year in college.... I guess I am getting old

The year you were born was my first year in college....

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The year you were born was about the time that I started thinking about retiring!

College costs too much. Most students don't think about ROI or return on investment and get too far in debt getting degrees in basket weaving or some other degree that will never pay enough to let them pay off the loan. In short, not all degrees are created equal. This fact was not covered by Mike Rowe.

When hiring a young engineer I prefer those that have done projects on their own. Anybody can get a degree. Doing a project on your own shows passion.

Another point that Mike Rowe did cover is certification. This is one of my sore spots. I have a BS in EE and CE ( computer engineering ). Because I have only a BS I can't teach in college. One needs to have a master's degree to teach under grads and a PhD to teach master candidates. Yet I do simulations for Sandia Labs and help out the FAA with test systems and they have PhDs yet they need my help. I can do math that would make most peoples head swim. When I ask for help on a forum there are few that can help and sometimes I get none because what I want to do is so far out there. One problem I posted was so simple looking yet so difficult that it took a PhD to solve the problem that specializes in solving this particular types of problems. There should be some sort of credit given for experience and previous work but there is no certificate for that. I have a PhD from the school of hard knocks but that school isn't recognized.

Do any of you remember Pandiani? He was a undergrad when he first posted here. We have kept in touch of the years. He now has his master's degree and teaches undergrads. I asked Pandiani about what he teaches and what he told me shocked me. It was very traditional but a lot of what he teaches is useless in my opinion. Pandiani isn't given the freedom to teach what is truly important. In other words, college teaches the past way too often. It also teaches what is easy to teach.

I have a lot of contempt for colleges in general. There are a few truly good professors I have met but most are simply clueless.

However, the need to know more exists. Too many plant engineers let their skills fade away because they don't use them. They see the same old equipment day after day and don't make the effort to keep update with the state of the art. They may have a superficial knowledge on how all their equipment works but often they don't truly understand.

This last August I went to a place that making a new press. I told them the way they were doing it was all wrong and how to do it right. I got a lot of resistance. It took over 4 hours to convince the engineers to try it my way. They had to rethink their procedures but when they got into operation their reject rate went from 40% to 0%. This company has PhDs but too many rest on their degree.

I really appreciate good mechanical or hydraulic engineers. There are very few.

One of the experiences that had an affect on me came when I joined Uncle Sam's nuclear navy. The enlist people in the nuclear navy were often smarter than the officers in the rest of the navy. The difference is that the enlisted nukes hadn't been through college where as the non-nuclear officer have but that doesn't mean the non-nuclear officers were really smarter. In other words you can have a degree and still not have 'the knack' or have the discipline to maintain your skills.

Education is a continuing process. Much of what I know know I learned own my own by reading articles and books over and over again until I understood them. Many books have student problems. I have had to do many.

+1 Peter

I have been listening to Ken Robinson on TED talks - how we educate our children is just so important

one of Ken Robinson's points is
"to teach you must master the current education system (- ie a phD) however the education system that you mastered has holes in how it educates people"

ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity


ken_robinson_how_to_escape_education_s_death_valley

Two of my best instructors in college were both former military members, one from the Army and one from the Navy. One worked on Minuteman nuclear missiles in silos and the other on multi-million watt radar systems, then both went on to careers as skilled trades in the auto industry.

I learned a lot from these fellows and other instructors with real world experience that came back to teach. I did not learn a whole lot from the career instructors

rexcramer said:

Two of my best instructors in college were both former military members, one from the Army and one from the Navy. One worked on Minuteman nuclear missiles in silos and the other on multi-million watt radar systems, then both went on to careers as skilled trades in the auto industry.

I learned a lot from these fellows and other instructors with real world experience that came back to teach. I did not learn a whole lot from the career instructors

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The best professors I had in college were those who had spent some time in industry. In my opinion this should be a requirement when instructors are hired. How can they train us for industry if they've never experienced it? Instead they look at the BS/MS/Phd branding and would rather hire someone who moved right from his Phd dissertation into a teaching position. It's even worse at the big universities because the professors are hired based on their research project experience, NOT their teaching ability. Many of them just relegate the classroom duties to their grad student teaching assistants (yes I was one).

All of this is fairly moot, however, because engineering colleges must maintain ABET accreditation which essentially spells out all the coursework. You spend four years touching briefly on a lot of subjects without delving deeply into any.

The cost for college/university is making it into an 'elite' where only the wealthy can send their kids... or those kids work a job which will have an impact on their education/research time

My eldest is 15yrs old and smart... a candidate for uni in a few years. Here in the UK she will need/get a student loan of £9K a year for the fees and 4K a year max for other items such as food/rent/bills. I will need to give her a top up of 6K to keep her bills and rent in check.

My freinds son just graduated..1st class BSC in computer science... and cant get a job...

I agree the ROI is most important because in my experience 'skills' and 'experience' do get the doors open..without the financial burden

geniusintraining said:

The year you were born was my first year in college.... I guess I am getting old

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Lancie1 said:

The year you were born was about the time that I started thinking about retiring!

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Well, gentlemen, I applaud your long service to PLC world. I'm sorry if I make you feel old. I only brought up my age because I felt it was pertinent to the discussion. Your generation is the (one or two) before mine that I was referring to. Were you told that your only chance in life was to get a degree?

I was, and I didn't listen. I took a Microsoft A+ certification class in the 10th grade, where instead of paying attention to lectures about the 7 layers of OSI and the like, I was writing programs in Visual Basic. My teacher told me that it would be a tragedy if I didn't go to college. She, along with my mom and dad said I would would regret it. I don't. I perceived at that time, that the powers that be (those at the school in charge of thought control) were trying to convince anybody who had an ounce of snap that a career in computer science/programming was the light at the end of the tunnel. I thought "what happens when all these people graduate and flood the market? What happens when software starts writing itself?" I graduated HS and went to the Navy. Now I have free college if I want it (with housing allowance to boot) but I still choose not to go. I make more as a Field Service Tech than I would as a rookie engineer; and I think it's a much more rewarding occupation. I get to work with my hands AND my head; smart AND hard. If I got my BSEE it would probably take me 10 years to catch up to my technician pay if salaries were plotted out with yearly increases, not factoring in lost earnings while I go to school. Any long term monetary advantage of the degree (after 10 years) will be more than offset by the investments I am making with my current salary.

I am a product of the world that was created by those who went before me. A world where there's hardly anybody willing to get dirt on their hands, and those who are, are rewarded handsomely. I'm living what Mike Rowe is saying.

I would never discourage anyone from getting a degree, it’s not all about financial gain. There is a lot to be gained and not just from the lectures. However in this country too many people go to university and study degrees that are not in demand in the real world e.g. medial studies.
Every year since I can remember there has been a report on the shortage of good graduate engineers, I believe this is the same in the US.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...eers-is-hurting-Britain-says-James-Dyson.html
The question really is do you need a degree to do this job? No, you don’t. Some of the best engineers I’ve worked with don’t have degrees. The problem is getting into a job like this without a degree when there is so much completion.
Personally, I do have a BEng in electronic engineering. However I left school at 17 and worked as a trainee technician repairing PCB’s for 4years with 1day a week studying at the local collage. After 4years I got bored, quit my job and went to university to get a degree. My first job doing this type of work was advertised as a graduate roll, so without the degree I would not be here now. But having some experience gave me a massive advantage over the other candidates.
A degree will help you get your first/second job, but experience is more important as time goes by.
Two good bits of advice I’ve received over the years are:
You don’t need to know everything, you just need to be able to work it out.
I’m retiring soon and I’m still bloody learning. (he was a great engineer)