panelview 600 screen flipped/reversed

I've a customer who has a few panelview 600 units installed in a hot nasty mine-site, northern western Australia. It is wet and very hot in the region currently, and of course these sit inside stainless steel cabinets in the sun. We have Lots of these in service in similar environments, and so I'm not inclined to point the finger directly at overheating.

Over the last few years, they have had a few panelview 600 units flip the screen, so everything reads right to left. It only seems to happen on this site. In the last month they've had a couple more do it, and they are getting tired of paying for "refurb" from the distributor. No useful information forthcoming from the repair dept. It looks like they just swap out the boards.

I'm curious if someone here might have an insight as to why these flip in the first place. Sometimes we do get traces of a slurry of ore and water inside the unit, and I consider that probable cause, but the last one I opened was spotless inside. (Any water ingress is always full of ore so it leaves a trace if it has been there) I've cleaned the boards with toothbrush, methylated spirits, and with 'CRC CO cleaner' which in the past has flipped a screen back again, but this doesn't always work. It seems like the voltage on one of the chip legs gets dragged down perhaps?

any thoughts would be appreciated.

No real idea at all, but, some languages write from right to left. Maybe a chip that controls this option is being affected with the ore contamination.

jrwb4gbm said:

No real idea at all,...

Click to expand...

I think you should have left it at that my friend!

jrwb4gbm said:

...some languages write from right to left. Maybe a chip that controls this option is being affected with the ore contamination.

Click to expand...

A chip for reversing text...ore contamination...you really made me laugh.

Thanks!

greatercontrols...

53962 - Image on the Standard PanelView screen is mirrored / reversed
Access Level: Everyone

greatercontrols said:

...It is wet and very hot in the region currently, and of course these sit inside stainless steel cabinets in the sun. We have Lots of these in service in similar environments, and so I'm not inclined to point the finger directly at overheating...

Click to expand...

Info:

573929 - Operating temperature range for the PanelView Plus
Access Level: Everyone

greatercontrols said:

...Sometimes we do get traces of a slurry of ore and water inside the unit, and I consider that probable cause...

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Regardless of this issue, if these terminals have had water ingress, they should be at least conformal coated, or marine certified.

greatercontrols said:

...Over the last few years, they have had a few panelview 600 units flip the screen, so everything reads right to left. It only seems to happen on this site. In the last month they've had a couple more do it, and they are getting tired of paying for "refurb" from the distributor...

Click to expand...

While I've not seen this particular issue before, there have been a couple of PanelView screen issues in the past on batches of terminals manufactured within certain periods. Distributors often have batches of products on the shelf, as might a customer. Depending on the time scale in which all these terminals were purchased and installed, it's possible that this customer received several terminals from the same batch.

To rule this in or out, I would check the manufactured date on the last couple of terminals that have faulted, and, if available, any others from this site that have been repaired for the same issue in the past. See if they were manufactured roughly within the same 6 month, or possibly 12 month period. This might indicate a faulty batch that may originally have been purchased from this, or another distributor.

greatercontrols said:

...No useful information forthcoming from the repair dept. It looks like they just swap out the boards...

Click to expand...

By virtue of the above AB answer, it's obviously a known hardware issue, for all Standard PanelView terminals. No mention of environmental factors causing the issue. They haven't stated, or perhaps checked, whether it's a fault on a batch of terminals for each model, or a general fault within the Standard PanelView family. As that answer was created in 2008, and the Standard Panelviews are now Silver Series, they're not going to worry too much about it at this stage, especially on out of warranty products.

If re-flashing the firmware doesn't sort the issue, and the manufactured dates correlate what I'm surmising, then, at least your customer, and yourself, will have some info to base a future plan upon.

I don't know how many they have in service, but I would consider migrating these terminals to a newer model PanelView Plus 6. They have optional high bright display, conformal coated, and marine certified terminals.

The cost might be more now, but less in the long run.

George

p.s. I need to elgooG those reversing chips, I think mines contaminated?(Sorry I can't help it!)

It's not really all that hard to believe. In a matrix type screen (anything other than a CRT) the columns are addressed sequentially across the screen for one vertical group of pixels (one line). The count is then zeroed and increases again for the next line. What if a generic up/down counter chip is used with the direction set by an input line. If that somehow was corrupted (if it is driven logically) or by a bad solder joint, then possibly the counting could be reversed.

Bernie,

Can't a guy have a laugh anymore without a debate starting?

You're obviously not seeing as I do...

My humorous take on the notion of a reversing chip is based on a couple of things, but most certainly is not based on the premise that such a chip could not exist.

Context...

OP: panelview 600 screen flipped/reversed

The OP is stating, from my reading of it, that pixel-for-pixel the entire image on the screen has flipped/reversed/mirrored. The fact they have stated "so everything reads right to left" does not mean that the text only has reversed.

This is clearly a display problem.

"some languages write from right to left. Maybe a chip that controls this option is being affected with the ore contamination"

Now perhaps our friend has read "so everything reads right to left" as literally meaning word-for-word the text has reversed, as opposed to pixel-for-pixel the image has?

Either way, the language on these terminals is selected from within the firmware/OS. A character set is then loaded for use on the keypad and displayed in pixelated format on the display. The order of the pixels is indeed determined by a display chip, and a display driver. The order of the pixels of characters is predetermined at the design stage of the firmware/OS. If a language, which by default displays and reads from right to left, is chosen, the manner in which it is displayed is also predetermined, and not decided upon, at selection, by a chip "option" which reverses the existing text on a screen wide basis. But more importantly, and without getting into the different right-to-left character sets, the existing language character set will arguable be nothing like the the right-to-left character set required upon change of language. So the notion that a chip reverses say English characters to display Arabic ones is nonsensical. Nothing gets "reversed" when selecting between languages, just displayed as intended.

AB fix 1: Re-flash the firmware

This is to resolve a display driver issue.

AB fix 2: Send for repair

This is to resolve a faulty display controller chip for the LCD.

If it is a hardware issue, a display chip or IC going faulty, corrupted, shorted, open circuited, or reverse biased is quite possibly, and most likely the cause here, but certainly not a language reversing chip.

George

At least the thread didn't die without any response.

Good on ya!

G

Hi Gents, Thanks for the responses. I'll address them sequentially, lest I get lost

jrwb4gbm
I was thinking about the way images are transferred to a display, and expecting some kind of ramp generator similar to the old CRT's. I haven't attempted to find a datasheet for any of the onboard chips as I expect them all to be locked away in an AB vault somewhere. Ore contamination could drag the voltage down on a pin and maybe have this effect, particularly as scrubbing the logic board sometimes works.

GeoSpark
53962 - that's about the level of what passes for AB 'tech support' that was available here in Australia. Hardware replacement has been the only method previously, though I will try firmware flash on these two units also.

57392 - These units are actually the older style PV 600 units (not plus), though the same operating temperatures apply. I agree that they are likely operating outside of spec, but we have well over 100 of these operating throughout Australia, some in Maylasia, Indonesia, Africa, Papua New Guinea. They all get subjected to similarly overheated conditions, yet this is the only site where the images 'flip'.

Bad Batches - I did check the most recent screens that returned, both were manufactured in 2009, though one was May, one was December. It is possible they share low quality/defective components. There are no records of past units to correlate data with, it wasn't important when it was a freak occurrence.

We have shifted over to a PV+6 700 unit for new systems, though with few in the field it is too early to know how that will fair. They are much nicer, though I worry that with more surface mount componenets with smaller track clearances, they may not be as hardy. With the constraints of having a minimal effort change-out there was only one screen option available, and that isn't available with a conformal coating. I've considered applying lacquer to the boards myself, though it gets touchy as warranty then becomes an issue. if I don't coat them, ore may kill them. If I do, there is no option for warranty. The actual coating itself may also act as an insulator and increase chip heat retention. I've also considered attempting to re-flow the solder but haven't yet developed the courage.

Worth noting is that this particular mine is a copper mine. Most of the mines these are installed at (from my understanding) are either Gold, Nickel or copper. Perhaps the Ore has a higher metal yield which directly affects it's conductivity, or another property which shifts it's pH away from neutral.

bernie_carlton
The complete image is reversed pixel for pixel. I'm inclined to believe this is where the issue is at, either a cold/bad solder joint or **** stuck in chip legs or one of the little via holes in the PCB. I've cleaned it reasonably well to no avail.

jrwb4gbm
Thread death. I'll probably have another screen die before the thread dies... I've been compiling my response for quite awhile, just when I think I'm nearly done, there's another post...

I have seen this (or something similar) a handful of times, and water ingress was the likely cause in our cases. One time, the image was upside down, but not reversed. We had no spare because we had used the spares for other failures just the day before, so the technician got really creative, mounted the PV+ upside down, and "lied" to the touch calibration to make the thing operable for another day while we waited for a replacement. I never bothered to try to figure out what I could try to do to repair them, we just worked on keeping water and dust out of the enclosures.

Greatercontrols,

Yes I did write the above entirely with the understanding that these are Standard PanelView terminals. That link does indeed relate to Standard PV as well. And as Paul is confirming, it's more the ingress than overheating I'd be concerned with.

I had actually quoted a PVP 6 700 K model for conformal coating above, but removed it to condense my reply a bit. All you can, and should do is advise your customer what they should be using here minimum. If they don't go for it, it's their problem. I wouldn't get too bogged down in trying to find IC schematics for old PanelViews, or start self coating or re-flowing solder. Let them suffer their sins to a degree. They'll never comit to the right course of action if you keep giving them other options. That's just my stance on it.

However, already there has indeed been issues with the new layout of the components within the PVP 6 terminals...

449114 -PanelViewPlus 6: On somePanelView Plus 6 (DC modules only) a part of the power supply may touch the chassis resulting in a blown fuse

I'm sure there'll be others in time.

George

Looking at the product selection chart here: http://www.ab.com/en/epub/catalogs/...0480/10791114/12293528/Product-Selection.html
I couldn't see any option for conformal coating for a keypad HMI.
We have selected the 2711P-K7C4A8 as it has the same cutout dimensions, communications interface and AC supply as the 2711-K6C5.
If there were option for conformal coating I would put it forward.

449114 - Luckily we use an AC variant.

The old PV 600s come back looking something like this:
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/attachment.php?attachmentid=31076&stc=1&d=1393387750
These usually aren't too bad, and thus far have been reasonably tolerant other than this screen flip issue on this site.

As for getting involved/bogged down in this, I'm economically motivated to keep these guys happy, and they are looking to me to put forward the right course of action. With no conformal coating option to put forward, I'm left with attempting to better weatherproof the enclosures and looking for an economical repair option.

Side note:
The only new PV+ unit to come back so far looks like this:
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/attachment.php?attachmentid=31075&stc=1&d=1393387750
The denser placement of parts traps deposits better. I suggested to the customer that warranty was out of the question.

greatercontrols said:

...As for getting involved/bogged down in this, I'm economically motivated to keep these guys happy...

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Of course you are. That's why I said "Let them suffer their sins to a degree. Of course you don't want to lose a customer here!

greatercontrols said:

...they are looking to me to put forward the right course of action...

Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I meant. Give them no option but the correct one.

greatercontrols said:

...With no conformal coating option to put forward, I'm left with attempting to better weatherproof the enclosures and looking for an economical repair option...

Click to expand...

However, I now realize you don't necessarily know all the options available to you and were doing your best to come up with solutions here.

greatercontrols said:

Looking at the product selection chart here: http://www.ab.com/en/epub/catalogs/...0480/10791114/12293528/Product-Selection.html
I couldn't see any option for conformal coating for a keypad HMI. We have selected the 2711P-K7C4A8 as it has the same cutout dimensions, communications interface and AC supply as the 2711-K6C5.
If there were option for conformal coating I would put it forward...

Click to expand...

Ok. Let's try and put that right...

I'm not assuming you don't know any of this, bu I'm going to lay this out in full for your benefit, and perhaps others.

A little AB ambiguity once again...

PanelView Plus 6 terminals are modular in design. Each component is a separate Module, from the Display Module, to the Logic Module, to the optional Communications Module. The minimum you require is a Display and a Logic Module. Fully Assembled Options, with a Display and Logic Module, can be ordered as a single catalog number, such as the 2711P-K7C4A that you selected, or they can be ordered as separate components, as a Modular Option for field installation, replacement or self assembly.

Let's split your 2711P-K7C4A into it's individual Modules...

Display Module:
Cat No. 2711P-RDK7C
Input Type: Keypad
Display: 7-in. color
Marine Certified: No
Conformal coated: No

Logic Module:
Cat No. 2711P-RP8A
Power Input: AC
RAM/NVRAM: 512 MB/512MB
Comms: Ethernet, RS-232, interface for optional comms module
Marine Certified: Yes
Conformal Coated: No

The 'Product Selection' tab from the link above does not contain the complete selection guide, but only the Fully Assembled Options. If you go to the 'Accessories' tab you'll see the full list of Modules available as Modular Options.

Display Module -

Scroll down to the Display Modules. Here you'll find the Conformal Coated Keypad Display Module that you're looking for - 2711P-RDK7CK. It's exactly the same as the standard 2711P-RDK7C, except it's Conformal Coated. So that's the Display Module sorted.

You could go with just this Display Module, and leave the standard Logic Module, but having looked at your photos, I wouldn't advise it. To make the entire assembled terminal Conformal Coated, you should select a Conformal Coated Logic Module as well.

Logic Module -

Communications:
All the Logic Modules have Ethernet and RS-232 as standard. The Communications Interface on each Logic Module is for when you want to add an optional Communications Module for say ControlNet, DH+/DH-485, or a second Ethernet port.

Supply Voltage:
The Display, Logic, and Communications Modules, are all DC powered. That is, they all run on 24VDC. The supply to all Modules is sourced via the Logic Module. So the choice of AC or DC supply only applies when selecting the Logic Module. It is merely to suit the end users preference of supply voltage. Once an AC supply enters the Logic Module it is converted to DC to supply itself, the Display Module, and optional Communications Module, if present.

Conformal Coating:
Your customer is using the basic 2711P-RP8A AC Logic Modules in the PanelView Plus 6 terminals that have been installed so far. This Logic Module, and it's Extended Software Features equivalent 2711P-RP9A, are the only AC Logic Modules available. Neither of these have Conformal Coating, but they are Marine Certified. In fact, all Logic Modules are Marine Certified.

If you want to use a Conformal Coated Logic Module, you would have to select the DC model 2711P-RP8DK. You could install the recommended AC-to-DC power supply 2711P-RSACDIN (85…265V AC, 47…63 Hz) in the terminal enclosure or supply DC from the other end of the supply cable.

These are your options my friend. I hope it helps.

Whenever I'm selecting AB products, I always prefer to use their full PDF selection guides rather than the website.
This is the full Visualization Platforms Selection Guide.
It's a one-stop-shop which includes selection guides, comparison charts, cables and accesories for all current models and modules of PanelView Plus 6, PanelView Component, Industrial Computers and Monitors, and all FactoryTalk HMI Software available.

This is a small, but specific PDF for the PanelView Plus 6 Conformal Coated options.

Regards,
George

You are quite right. I'm aware the units are a combination of two modules, though I had absolutely no idea about conformal options within the accessories page, that would have been much easier. I made the assumption from the selection page that if a conformal coated option was available, it would be there.

I'll definitely put forward the conformal coated display section.

As for the logic section, the slurry tends to run down the inside of the cabinet door and straight through the screen, passing by the logic module entirely. Additionally we don't have sufficient capacity or room to upsize the existing 5A 24VDC supply already in the cabinet. If the Logic section is 'marine' I might have to see how it fairs.

Thanks for the input, I'd never have looked at the accessories page without prompting. Lesson learned. I'll have another attempt at getting these old panels going and provide some feedback.

Cheers,
Scott.