View Full Version : Contol Cabinet Spec
May 4th, 2002, 10:22 AM
I am working on developing a cabinet spec to eliminate the hodge-podge of random equipment installed on OEM machinery. i have put together the basics such as cpu type/size, color coding, wire marking, illuminated fused outputs, service laptop recep and workmanship. My question is does anyone know where i can find a site of infor on other spec used in industry. All of this has come about after we recieved a machine with a 5/05 processor, 14 Magnetek freq drive, 3 SEW freqs, Cutler Hammer touchscreen, banner proxes/photoeyes and telemechanique switches. In my mind since we had the beutiful AB 5/05 we should have had 160's and 1336plus drives and a panelview HMI.
the reason for the wire making specifics are as I:1/00 left the card it immediatly turned into TB100 in the panel then onto the next remote terminal block it became TB200 and again TB300 at the next and onto the device, this MESS makes it hard to troubleshoot without tugging wires and/or ringing them out.
could anyone point me in the correct direction? i dont want to miss anything and get a change order later when installintion begins.
thanks in advance, scott
May 4th, 2002, 12:30 PM
First off, you are needlessly limiting yourself if you base your selection of VFD and HMI etc. on the PLC platform chosen! It is no easier to interface a Panelview with an A-B PLC than any other brand just because it is the same brand! In fact, in my experience, it is considerably more cost effective to optimize the choice of each component based on its own function and value. Just remember that interface to the other components is one of the required functions and design accordingly.
As far as wire numbers go, my personal opinion is that it is an exercise in futility to try to develop a rigid wire number scheme that identifies function or point of origin, etc. The best bet is to make sure every wire is numbered on both ends, and the wire number is recorded on the as-built drawings. You need the drawings to work on a sysetm of any complexity anyway! In our shop we assign wire numbers randomly based on hte rung number of the electrical drawing. Every time a wore goes through a device that changes or can change its electrical state, it changes number. Therefore, each wire on a switch contact has a different number, but all the 24 VDC commons tied to the power supply have the same number. We number rungs in increments of 10, (1010, 1020, for example) and index the last digit after each device.
Trying to control wire numbers used by contractors after the wire leaves the panel is REALLY an exercise in futility! Just getting the same number on both ends is sometimes a challenge.
May 5th, 2002, 06:33 PM
If a switch (I:1/00) on a remote panel goes directly to the input card (point I:1/00) via a terminal block or two it should still be called the same name on both ends. When i cost a couple thousand dollars per hour for downtime i have no time to **** around with the as builts! maybe as an oem or contractor it doesnt really matter becouse they already sold the machine and are not worried about making $$$$ for the company, but i am. Thats like being born Tom Jenkins and years later putting your name in the phonebook as Gary Ganew! Now your old class buddies have to search high and low for your digits.
May 5th, 2002, 09:18 PM
SL he wasnt stating that you would do that. but for some reason it was a way of doing in the past. I have machines that are over 30 yrs old to within last few years, somewhere along the line someone taught someone to change numbers at all connection points, not just electrical change of state. I am use to what you spoke of with wire number 62 becoming wire 145 etc etc but on the other hand I understand Tom when talking about contractors. They rarely do anything more than use pull numbers to tell them what wire is what on each end but never associate to an I/O etc. Its a hard futile process unless you do yourself, others are going to shortcut to save time/money.
Some of this is what gets me about alot here, some are great with programming but dont have a clue what its like working on the machine. Some know what its like but there programming techniques can be strange. Others are drafed programmers (from computers) and dont know machines so they think the should use all the fancy features available at all times as in who cares who has to work with the machine.
All in all its a difficult task your are attempting.
May 5th, 2002, 09:42 PM
Most large manufacturers that buy sepcial machinery do that. Almost Any time we build a machine, we get a company standard spec from our customers. It states vendors, part numbers, (usually a preference with a second choice), and methods of construction. We have customers that state junction box minimum sizes and panduit clearances. It certainly can be done. We stick to the specs exactly. If we feel that deviating is wise, a simple discussion, and maybe a signed print takes care of it.
In response to your original questions-
Decide what components you like and spec them in the contract.
I have a bunch of those specs, but I can't share them. (at least not without permission)
Depending on the equipment, you can spec anything that you want. Often, as an oem that doesn't have to live with the stuff, I learn a few things from a spec. Quite a few parts of customer specs have made into our own standards.
In addition to the specs that I mentioned above, I have seen everything that you mentioned is one spec or other. Most common are preferred devices, vendors, voltages, (including control level, e.g. 120VAC vs. 24VDC), minimum box sizes, and print organization. Some specs are upwards of 50 pages, including mechanical, hydraulics, and pneumatics.
Just remember, the price you pay has a direct relatioship with the size of the spec. You will have to decide if it is worth it. Many have decided that it is.
May 6th, 2002, 08:31 AM
Every system startup that I have done involves some programming, hardware, and wiring changes. There must be disipline in marking up drawings and then having new copies with revision notes made. They must be distributed through proper channels so that anyone that needs them has access to them. This also goes for changes down the road. Be careful of the term "As Built". If a change is made later, the new version is also "As Built". We number our revisions with consecutive numbers and make comments like "As Per Customer's Approval", "Releasesd to Production", "As Shipped" "As Commissioned" and "Field Change" along with a table including details..
Good notation should allow you to trace a loop from drawing to drawing as it passes through devices and changes its number.
May 7th, 2002, 08:11 PM
Thanks for the replies, you all got the wheels turning. Rick Densing, would it be possible to e-mail me directly with an example of your collected specs without company names? Also what do you manufacture? maybe we could look into your machinery someday if applicable. I have read many of your posts and like what i see so im sure it will reflect in your programming of the equipment.
thanks scott :cool:
May 7th, 2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by SLaubach
Also what do you manufacture?
Eric's Tip O' The Day: If there's a http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/images/home.gif icon at the bottom of anyone's messages, this means there's a link to a website... Rick has one -Eric
May 8th, 2002, 07:01 AM
One of my customers gave me one in word format. Maybe I can edit out all references to their name. (I know that they copied it from other companies anyway). I'll let you know.
We design and manufacture special machine tools, workholding, and multiple spindle machining heads. We will also do controls and panel work on a contract basis.
May 8th, 2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Eric Nelson
REPLY TO Eric's Tip O' The Day:
Try not to be a JACKASS to people looking help.....My Tip O' The Day
May 8th, 2002, 10:14 PM
Wow :eek:... I never dreamed anyone would take offense to my "tip". It was in no way directed at you, I was simply pointing out one of the many nice features of this new forum that people may not have discovered yet... I only quoted YOUR question because this is what prompted my "tip"
Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding... It was not intentional :embar:
May 9th, 2002, 04:39 AM
Eric. I did not know what the little house meant. It helped me. Regards Alan Case
May 9th, 2002, 10:51 PM
Thanks Alan... ;) Glad someone was helped<hr></hr>
<p align="center">http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/images/smilies/offtopic.gif (<--- Why is this smiley mad?)</p>
Alan, a while back you had given a source for 8-pin mini-din connectors from connectworld. Many thanks for that info... I just got a bunch in and they're a GREAT alternative to buying A-B's outrageously priced cables!
P.S. For anyone else who wants to save $$$, these cables are under US$8.00 at ConnectWorld (http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/MD08M-06?EmDgsAHL)
May 10th, 2002, 02:13 AM
Eric, You owe the thanks to someone else on here. They answered a post of mine a long time ago and told me where to find the cables, but I can't remember who it was now. I just re-posted the info. Regards Alan Case
May 13th, 2002, 07:12 AM
My boss is not real comfortable sending that stuff out. One thing I can add is that some of them read like legal documents and are included in the contract.