need help, servo or VFD?

hoisee

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Join Date
Sep 2014
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PLC
Posts
11
Hello,

We are going to upgrade an old bandsaw so that we can feed the wood automatically. The requirement is easy -> can control its speed and there is a button to let it go back. I planed to use Powerflex525 or Powerflex70 to do the job but my boss prefer servo. What's the suggestion?

I'm new to this area but I had spent must time to research in the network. From what I had learned, I think I can use an FOC VFD and induction motor to do the job easily cause we only concern speed and torque(all speed range). Does this kind of VFD (with encoder) can provide stable speed control like a servo? If cost is not an issue, which one is better to provide a stable adjustable feedrate in this case? Thanks for your help :)
 
I would use a traditional AC drive if I'm concerned with velocity control and a servo if I'm concerned with precise position control. Also, if you are worried about precise velocity control, i would not go with a PF70 or PF525. The 70 does not have encoder feedback and my experience with trying to do flux vector with a 525 has been less than successful. I would highly recommend going with the Powerflex 750 series if you needing high performance.

Also, don't quote me on this, but i believe a Powerflex 755 can perform some basic motion and servo applications.
 
I think it comes down to what you want to spend. Either will work. Personally, I would use the VFD with an induction motor, then you can select different speeds based on your parameters.

I think a servo for something of this nature would just be overkill, and probably more programming than you want to do.
 
Does your boss know what a servo is? Or does he think it's just an upgraded verson of a drive? I can't imagine sawing through wood would require the velocity control accuracy of a servo with an encoder, or even a VFD with an encoder. Since the material we're talking about is wood it's obvious you're not making high-precision parts for the Starship Enterprise, here. I think you're on the right track, and your boss is being hornswoggled by clever marketing. I think a simple VFD with open-loop speed control (like a Powerflex 525) will do everything you need it to do. You won't be able to control the speed of the blade to within 0.1 RPM or anything like that, but for an old bandsaw cutting some wood? It should be fine. Obviously, I don't know your application exactly, so at most you'd need what was suggested above: A Powerflex 750 series with closed-loop velocity control.

But a servo? That's just a waste of time and money for this application.
 
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You won't be able to control the speed of the blade to within 0.1 RPM or anything like that, but for an old bandsaw cutting some wood?

I believe he is wanting to build a power feeder, not control the bandsaw blade speed.

Either way (unless there is more to the story), a VFD and induction motor should be more than enough for this app.
 
Thanks for all your quickly replies, this is a great website :)

@FactoryTalktotheHand
The VFD is going to control the speed of a stage that holding the wood, not to control the blade speed. Although our products are mainly made of wood, most machines in our workshop is precised at 0.01mm resolution and parts of wood are also controlled precisely. I think my boss prefer to use servo is that he had seen the stable speed of our cnc machines and we had some machines equipped of traditional V/Hz VFD which didn't perform well enough. And we have to consider the load effect so I think maybe a sensorless or closeloop VFD can do the job but I don't have this experience so came here for help.

@Musbtr1pin
We want a continuous changing speed, not step, so I didn't plan to use parameters to select different speeds. I planed to use potentialmeter to control the speed.

@Helliana
I figured that PW70 has the optional encoder feedback function, no?
 
I would also agree to use a vfd. Servo for that application is over kill. I found the 525 pretty straight forward to use and I have used them in baggage handling application with encoder feedback
 
Thanks for all your quickly replies, this is a great website :)

@FactoryTalktotheHand
The VFD is going to control the speed of a stage that holding the wood, not to control the blade speed. Although our products are mainly made of wood, most machines in our workshop is precised at 0.01mm resolution and parts of wood are also controlled precisely. I think my boss prefer to use servo is that he had seen the stable speed of our cnc machines and we had some machines equipped of traditional V/Hz VFD which didn't perform well enough. And we have to consider the load effect so I think maybe a sensorless or closeloop VFD can do the job but I don't have this experience so came here for help.

Sorry, I misunderstood. In that case, a simple servo like a Kinetix 300 might be a good choice. Programming would be a bit more involved than a drive, but you would get the precision you're looking for. Other than that, a drive with encoder feedback capability would probably suffice.
 
What about a brushless DC motor? You get good torque at the slower speeds and some feedback from the hall effect sensors. It can be thought of as a servo without the expensive controller for positioning and without the encoder.
 
Vfd

If you are just cutting to the end and using a switch of some type to tell it to return a VFD should be fine, closed loop if you want to avoid stalling or to know it is moving. If you are feeding to end open loop should be fine. Servo is realy just making sure it goes to posittion.
 
Sorry, I misunderstood. In that case, a simple servo like a Kinetix 300 might be a good choice. Programming would be a bit more involved than a drive, but you would get the precision you're looking for. Other than that, a drive with encoder feedback capability would probably suffice.

Yes, my another solution is to use kinetix motion controller, I had used AB' motion analyzer tool to simulate it and realized that it seems that I really don't need a motion controller. However, maybe it is a good choice cause we are going to modify another machine which will need the motion controller. This simple case will let me get some experience quickly :)
 
If you are just cutting to the end and using a switch of some type to tell it to return a VFD should be fine, closed loop if you want to avoid stalling or to know it is moving. If you are feeding to end open loop should be fine. Servo is realy just making sure it goes to posittion.

This is an important issue I never thought of 🙃
How to deal with stalling???? I have no idea....
If openloop, it seems that I would not know stalling had happened...
If closeloop, will vfd output a bit to indicate that situation so that I can do some thing to handle it??
 
What about a brushless DC motor? You get good torque at the slower speeds and some feedback from the hall effect sensors. It can be thought of as a servo without the expensive controller for positioning and without the encoder.

I need to do some research about dc motors, maybe this is a good choice :)

By the way, .net HMI seems a good choice for me. I had realized that different manufacture has their own programming software/language in hmi or plc.... even the same manufacture, diffenrent developing tools for different models :eek:
 
The difference is about the precision really. A Servo motor works essentially like a synchronous motor, the frequency applied to the stator is the speed that the rotor will spin at, because the rotor has permanent magnets; its magnetic fields are always present. So if you tell a servo to run at 300RPM, it runs at 300RPM immediately (within the torque capacity of the design).

An induction motor is, by definition, going to need to have slip; the difference between the synchronous speed of the rotating magnetic fields in the stator and the induced magnetic fields in the rotor. Without slip, you have no torque. So if I want a motor to spin at 300RPM and it has 3% slip for example, the VFD must determine that the slip is 3%, compensate for it, and make the stator frequency equivalent to 309.27 RPM, that way the rotor speed ends up at 300. This of course is subject to all kinds of internal and external influences and variations, therefore the performance envelope is very dynamic and requires quite a bit of number crunching. That is what a "Vector" drive gets you. But not all vector drive control algorithms are the same, especially when it comes to torque. To perform a torque controlled application, you need a really good VFD that in essence anticipates the slip in an even tighter envelope, called a Torque Regulator loop, which usually comes with Flux Vector Control or Field oriented Control algorithms. The cheaper the drive, the less capable it is of doing this. So in the AB world, "Architecture" class drives like the 7 series are capable of this, but the lower cost "Component" class drives like the 4, 40 and 520 series are not. The 525 can do what is referred to a "Velocity Vector" control, with the encoder feedback, but the microprocessor inside of it is meant to be lower cost, so it does not possess the internal kahunas to accomplish the necessary number crunching you need for Torque Regulation. Velocity Vector means it will adjust the output to maintain a speed much much more precisely than a basic SVC drive is able to, which does improve the torque capability, but the precision by which it can maintain this is nowhere near what an FVC/FOC or servo drive can.

So how much better are the technologies? It's not easy to compare, but let's try by looking first at how fast the various technologies can respond to a change in the load, referred to as a "Step Change Response" as measured in radians per second. Radians are parts of a circle, 2pi radians = a full circle (FWIW). So the higher the radians per second (rad/sec) the response rate is, the faster the motor control algorithm can react to a change in load conditions, such as when accelerating or re-accelerating as something changes in the load.

With a standard V/Hz drive it's impossible to discuss the response in radians, because the response is in seconds. In other words the V/Hz VFD tells the drive to run the motor at 300Hz, a few seconds later it gets there, then from that point on has no idea if the motor is at that speed or not, until maybe the current goes so high that it trips on overload.

With a simplistic Sensorless Vector Control (SVC) algorithm, as found in really "hard to believe" low cost drives, you might get a response of maybe .5 radians/sec., better than a non-SVC drive. Better quality SVC drives get to about 5 rad/sec, so a 10x increase in response time. Upping that to a Velocity Vector Control algorithm such as the 525 with an encoder feedback can take that to 10 rad/sec, the response is twice as fast in other words, so the precision is a big leap better as far as SPEED regulation. But going to FVC/FOC or an entry level servo can take it to a quantum leap of 100-120 rad/second response rate as far as speed control.

What does that look like in the real world though? V/Hz we say is capable 1-2% speed regulation, but in a 6:1 turn down range at best, meaning the slower it gets, the less accurate that becomes. Low end SVC becomes 1% more consistently and at a 20:1 turn down. The better SVC algorithms like in the PF40 or 525 w/o the encoder feedback take it to 0.5% speed regulation and a 100:1 ratio, then the Velocity Vecor takes it to 0.1%. But FVC/FOC and servos become 0.001% regulation and a 1000:1 turn down ratio.

From a torque standpoint, an induction motor is capable of 200-220% of FLT peak for a few seconds, a servo motor is more like 250-300% peak torque, so that's why the response and accuracy can be so much better accomplished.

Now, do you NEED that kind of accuracy and response for a feed into a saw? I seriously doubt it. Many people tried VFDs years and years ago when they were only V/Hz and they were unsatisfied with the performance and wrote them off for any future consideration, deciding that servo was the only way to go. Unfortunately for them, they have now missed out on a lot of very significant improvements in performance that comes with standard off-the-shelf drives. I've done a few saw feeder drive applications over the years, mostly to optimize the feed rate by using a closed loop feedback of the saw loading (kW) to the VFD running the feeder. I can attest to the fact that older V/Hz drives were indeed unsatisfactory in that regard, but I cannot think of a sawing operation that would need any better than a good quality SVC drive now, unless, as was mentioned, it's a matter of precise positioning. Were it my money, I would use a PF755 without the external encoder, in SVC mode at first, see how it performs. If your boss doesn't like it, you can change to using Encoderless FVC mode (that drive is capable of that now), then if that's not good enough, you can add an encoder to the motor and change again to full blown FOC control. With that, you will get servo-like performance with an induction motor, but take it there in steps of ever increasing complexity so that if the simpler way works, you are done.
 

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