Here we go again (LOTO of control power)

OkiePC

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My employer had me add a bunch of plastic lockable button covers to all the e-stops on some machines. They also have added places to put locks on the doors and hinged guards on most of the machinery in the plant. I believe this to be ignorant and foolish because now we have folks reaching into deadly pinch points to clear jams and perform adjustments with main power applied and the only protection being a control power (e-stop button or safety switch on a door).

I tried to explain to the safety people that this is stoopid, but they insist that they are "going above and beyond" OSHA law by requiring employees to apply their locks to these doors every time they open them. Problem is, now we have folks replacing motors and working on chain drives etc. with the main disconnect closed and their only protection coming from a safety relay (or in some cases a sinking single channel roller operated limit switch!). Some of these (from the 80s) Japanese machines even have the "e-stop" buttons wired only as PLC inputs! Even some of the very knowledgeable maintenance guys have this false sense of security. I have been personally telling operators they can play Russian Roulette with their limbs if they so choose, but I ain't doing it. I opened the panel doors and show them that "See all those drives alive and happy just itching to start? Only thing between you and severe injury or death is this one button contact or that door switch and they never fail, right?"

I don't care if it takes 3 minutes for the PanelView to boot, I lock out the main every time even if my work takes ten seconds.

Help me come up with proof that even production leadership can understand before I have to walk off a really good job (again).

When is it okay to lock out an e-stop button? When is it okay to drill holes in a door and hang your lockout lock on the door?

Maybe I am being uptight, but I have picked up fingers off the floor and rescued screaming grown men from entrapment more than once and I am DONE with that.

I have pored over OSHA law (OSHA suggestions as my last boss stated) but I can't find anything clear enough for the safety people to understand that says this is a no-no.

Thanks,
Paul
 
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From OSHA 1910.147 "Energy isolating device. A mechanical device that physically prevents the transmission or release of energy, including but not limited to the following: A manually operated electrical circuit breaker; a disconnect switch; a manually operated switch by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from all ungrounded supply conductors, and, in addition, no pole can be operated independently; a line valve; a block; and any similar device used to block or isolate energy. Push buttons, selector switches and other control circuit type devices are not energy isolating devices."

Okay, there is part of it that I somehow missed in my first dozen readings... Now I just need to find where it states that your lockout device is to only be used for lockout and nothing else...

A little more ammo and then I can go to them again guns blazing, letter of resignation in hand if (when) they balk...

This time though, first I am going to use my dental bennies and see about getting another job. Going cold turkey off of paychecks has it downside, but I literally do care more about the fingers and toes of my new friends at work than I do food and clothing.

Maybe my purpose in life as a pot stirrer is going to save someone some serious injury and I need to visit all these little amateur factories for a few months while I still enjoy this line of work.

to be continued.
 
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And there she be:

"1910.147(c)(5)(ii)
Lockout devices and tagout devices shall be singularly identified; shall be the only devices(s) used for controlling energy; shall not be used for other purposes; and shall meet the following requirements:"

Hanging your lockout lock on a non approved control system switch or a guard door would be "other purpose" as far as my legal skills can determine.

So I found my answers. Any comments or criticisms, supporting or otherwise will still be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Paul

EDIT: It's going to be real fun in the morning meeting on Tuesday after work when I tell all my (maintenance) guys that they are breaking the law if they hang their locks on these doors. I can see the look on the boss' face already...
 
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Nothing about OHSA is ever cut and dried, they are written in legaleze
in order to allow a shift of the blame to the next lowest person
in the food chain.
That normally is the lowest financially resourced person involved.

So never be that person is often the wisest move,
and keep your head down if you are.
 
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I'm not being cheeky or anything but you seem to have a care for safety, why not work for OHSA?

These ideas do seem pointless and somewhat dangerous, we have similar rules over here and there is only ever one lockout point on each machine and its on the main isolator. I never go in unless my lock is on that point. I work in print and die-cutting and maintain some pretty old and scary machinery so I'm going to be damn sure it's safe before I stick my digits in there.

I'm surprised that some of the machines haven't estops wired to the plc, that's a big no-no over here.
 
Yeah, when I visited the OKC OSHA office in 2013 after my life (and several others) was recklessly endangered they started to offer me a job too...I had to have them pull up their own rules on their computer and explain them to the poor lady in charge.

No thanks... Not that I wouldn't be good at it, but it sucks to be the only person with a clue no matter where you work.

I should have been a surgeon or some professional but when I got out on my own, I had to choose between eating and college and I chose the former.

Here, 'If more than 3 people were injured or killed, press 1, if less than three people were injured or killed press 2, for everything else, jump in the circle and get jerked around' quoting loosely from the phone recording...

For that situation, I contacted 5 different attorneys but I am not a millionaire and I had no provable damages so none of them ever called me back. I now understand that OSHA in OK is about C.Y.A. for businesses and that there is no advocate for the typical employee like me until after the death or injury has occurred.

I want to make this company safer and relieve the ignorance but if I hit a brick wall, I will calmly walk away. I am not going to let it get to me if I get nowhere, but I am not going to surrender either.

Backstory (one of several): One time about 10 years ago, I caught a guy reaching over a safety mat into a splicer and of course I pointed out the error to him. He was about 6'3" and did not get hurt. He did not even realize the dangerous habit he had developed which saved him one button press and 3 seconds of downtime. I didn't talk to the other shifts. I didn't think any of them were tall enough or ambitious enough to do that. A couple of weeks later one of the other operators did the same thing and I got to help rescue him. I could have prevented that or at least tried if I had made a big stink about it. Now, I would rather make a big stink than wonder if someone might get hurt if I don't.

There is a dude from an insurance company that has been trying to recruit me for 6 months and I have been ignoring him. Free training and decent starting pay...maybe I should give it a chance.

My dream job is to work in a daycare with a bunch of screaming little ones. I know, I know I am weird but I just love little kids no matter how bratty they are...But I need at least $40k/year to break even...

PieAce!
 
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My dream job is to work in a daycare with a bunch of screaming little ones. I know, I know I am weird but I just love little kids no matter how bratty they are...But I need at least $40k/year to break even...

GO FOR IT!!!

Paul not sure if you remember but you sent me a resume about 10 years ago... I showed it to my bosses but that was when you moving (TX or LA) but anyway the automation world would loose a great tech but I say go for your dream, I did and its worked out great, like you I had issues with 'others' I was working for my last employer for 15 years and making good money but not going anywhere but side ways.

It has not been easy but its the best move we (my wife and myself) have done, it was not easy but I have enjoyed it very much.

I also think daycare would be a great job if thats what you liked, my sisters were going to do it way back when one of them wanted to learn the medical side as that would give them a good advantage (nice to have a RN watching your kids) and the other was going to learn the business side... now 30 years later one is in charge of a hospital and the other a bank, I still think they would of been happier if they did there daycare, so if you have any medical experience or can hire someone that would be a big plus.

My dream was started by everyone on this site, I saw a need in the market and still love being involved in the automation side, but love answering to myself and have learned a lot about running a business
 
Keep in mind that modern drives that use Safe Torque Off functions as part of an E-Stop circuit do not necessarily remove electricity from the motor. That means that the motor leads could be live in an E-Stop state if the line power to the drive is not removed. Swapping out a motor at this point could be dangerous.
 
I'm with Mark. Don't let $ get in the way of your passion.

I've seen the estop locks used to signal to operators that a machine was out of service but even then proper loto was required before physically working on the machine.
 
When you go to your "superiors" with irrefutable facts with which they don't agree, you will be fired... no doubt about it
It's unfortunate but true that maintaining the food chain is much more important than anything else
 
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When is it okay to lock out an e-stop button?
I can answer that one: Never, not ever, not in any circumstance. The Emergency Stop button should always perform an emergency stop when needed.
 
When you go to your "superiors" with irrefutable facts with which they don't agree, you will be fired... no doubt about it
It's unfortunate but true that maintaining the food chain is much more important than anything else

Nah, they won't fire me. I openly disagree with them on many subjects (like making production responsible for lubrication). They might part ways with me, but it will be amicable and mutual if it comes to that. They absolutely will not interfere with my lockout methods and they will be well aware of the facts and where they stand if they do. I can understand if they want to keep all the other mushrooms in the dark and I understand that they will not want me to shine any light on them. For informing others of the danger and causing doubt amongst other workers and increasing downtime when others start doing lockout more correctly...for that they might fire me. They won't do it because of a difference of opinion, but if they think I am just making trouble. They will do it because they really and honestly believe that they are right and I am wrong.

No problem. I am offering them a chance to save life and limb. The choice is theirs. I protect myself and everyone around me at all times I don't care if I am swimming at the lake or working on the job, my standards for safety are not going to be downgraded by some company rules. I can always find another job, and sleep well knowing I tried my best to do the right thing.

Getting fired can be so liberating anyhow. I like this little factory and the folks I work with. It is the cleanest environment I have ever worked in. No harmful chemicals, only paper dust. The corporate entity that encompasses us is just a money machine like any other company. I get that. I understand how these things evolve to the point that they have. I have no bitterness or hard feelings, and I never will. There is no malice on anyones part in this situation. It is just an unfortunate lack of understanding on their part.

There is no person or persons who want to take short cuts or risk lives. They constantly tell us how this product is cheap (toilet paper, paper towels) that there is no reason to risk yourself to save product or uptime. They simply don't realize the danger. The plant is small, and the folks who developed these concepts of lockout are not technical professionals. They have good intentions as almost all people do.

To them, I am just the mouthy new maintenance tech. I think they are starting to realize I know a lot of stuff and can add a lot of value to their staff, but they don't necessarily trust me. I am pretty sure they think it is just my opinion being different than theirs. And, they have been practicing and developing this method of lockout for at least a couple of years. They even said they had consultations with OSHA when they set all of this into motion. It is quite possible it is a case of the blind leading the blind. Along comes this a-hole who thinks he can see better (me) trying to yank the rug out from under this system they have already sunk a lot of faith and work into.

In any case I am not going to lose my cool. I am going to maintain my professionalism, control my emotions, and deal with it without compromising safety.

When they hired me and I explained what happened at my last job and how I do not compromise safety, they knew what they were getting and they still hired me. When I told them why I left that job because my LOTO was cut and a hot wire in a puddle of water was energized while I was at lunch...the interviewer (my boss now) cut me off and said 'Paul, I want to tell you right now, that would never ever happen to your here. We respect locks. You lock that machine, you own it. That machine is yours when your lock is on it. No one will touch your lock. We have a lengthy and thorough process to go through with multiple signatures to remove a lock if someone leaves it and goes home, and we won't even do that until we contact them.'

Bottom line is this: my actions will make someone think twice and will help someone out there in their future. My inaction would be unacceptable to me.
 
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The daycare dream thing is probably about to be satisfied by my boys who are getting ready to spread my genes all over the globe. My youngest just got married and my 2nd oldest is in the Navy, the oldest is veterinary school. I am starting to drop hints for grandkids. I fear that working with strangers' kids would open up a whole new can of worries that would bug me even more than adult factory injuries...(thinking about when my first wife had to deal with cases of abuse when she was a day care worker).

Also, Mark and everyone, thanks for the kind compliments and comments. I appreciate them all.
 
Keep in mind that modern drives that use Safe Torque Off functions as part of an E-Stop circuit do not necessarily remove electricity from the motor. That means that the motor leads could be live in an E-Stop state if the line power to the drive is not removed. Swapping out a motor at this point could be dangerous.

The guys I saw changing a plug in servomotor were in more danger of injury from the mechanical system than the electrical. They do lock out the main when they have to unwire a normal 3 phase motor, but for too many situations, they know they won't get in trouble with the company if they hang a lock on a guard door. So, they are using common sense to overrule the real rules.

I have good common sense too, but I don't even trust my own damm self that much... When I am about to touch something I think "when this thing starts moving can it hurt me?" If the answer is yes, I yank the main disconnect, verify it's off (this verify step gets skipped 99% of the time) and then go after it with confidence.
 
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The guys I saw changing a plug in servomotor were in more danger of injury from the mechanical system than the electrical. They do lock out the main when they have to unwire a normal 3 phase motor, but for too many situations, they know they won't get in trouble with the company if they hang a lock on a guard door. So, they are using common sense to overrule the real rules.

I have good common sense too, but I don't even trust my own damm self that much... When I am about to touch something I think "when this thing starts moving can it hurt me?" If the answer is yes, I yank the main disconnect, verify it's off (this verify step gets skipped 99% of the time) and then go after it with confidence.

Doing work for Shell canada, Every day I had to go verify others lockouts were actually deenergized before it was considered locked out. They also in addition locked out the hand off auto buttons. And I agree that I would feel like a bag of shlt if I could have prevented someone's injury or death but chose not to...
 

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