Apprentices.

I would like to hear peoples experiences and thoughts on apprentices!

The reason I ask is recently it has dawned on the government here in the Uk that there is a very big shortage of them.
To that end they are now offering financial incentives for employers to take them on.
We are only 2 men - me and a very good electrician.
I do the technical work and the electrician does the 'wire pulling'.
We are both very happy with this situation as he has not the slightest interest in computers or controls and I love what I do.
(As an aside; I was an installation electrician but I could never hold a candle to the skills and beautiful work my partner does - his installations are works of art)

I had said for a few years that we should have an apprentice but there were snags.
The main one being customers not liking paying for a 'lad' to be stood about watching and them getting charged for him and the cost of his education.

As well as controls we do breakdowns and industrial installations.

With the financial help - we decided to take one on.
We interviewed several and it was a strange affair.
We of course needed someone with qualified brains - by that I mean high end education certificates that had to include math(s).
They seemed to love the chance of programming and designing but when installation was described, not many liked the sound of that.
I could see that they thought 'I have not stayed in school this long to wear overalls and get dirty'

So..... Apprentice No 1 started.
A very bright boy and his first job was helping disconnect and move a massive machine to new premises.
You know the type of job - disconnect a thousand wires marking and photographing and putting them all back in the right place.
3 days he lasted! His mother phoned to say he was exhausted and wouldn't be coming again, oh and could she come and collect his wages for the 3 days.

Apprentice No 2 was a girl.
She was also extremely intelligent and was an IT graduate.
She was also very attractive and drew workers and bosses alike to her like moths to a flame. (or like fly's round **** as one person described it) She was definitely going to be an asset.
She was keen and a great worker, didn't mind grease smears on her and a very quick learner.
Sadly she left after a few months (I'll not go into the reasons.) It was a sad loss.

Apprento' No 3 was in his mid 20's and worked as an operative at one of the companies we work at.
He desperately wanted a 'career' as an electrical technician and he was noticed because he watched everything we did and asked the right questions while we were there.
Unfortunately, his attention span was very low and nothing seemed to 'go in'.
In short - he couldn't grasp theory or practice or remember what he had been shown only the day before. (and believe me, we are very patient tutors)
As they say 'he left by mutual consent'

So I would like opinions on what level should we pitch for apprentices. It has been my experience that 'too bright' don't like the grunt work and 'average intelligence' can't get past wire pulling.

I don't have time to write anything useful right now - but this is a subject which is near and dear to my heart ... I have a question, please ...

does your country have anything like what we in America call a "minimum wage" law? ...

Ron Beaufort said:

I don't have time to write anything useful right now - but this is a subject which is near and dear to my heart ... I have a question, please ...

does your country have anything like what we in America call a "minimum wage" law? ...

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+1
Workforce developement is the term used in the States.
As Ron stated, this is also a subject near and dear to my heart. We old guys won't be around forever, and, the Days Of Layoffs in the 90's have come back to roost.
I have clients with 50% of their shop with 30+ years of service, and 50% of their shop with 5- years of service...and they just don't know how they are going to keep running when the 30+ guys retire.
And government isn't the answer...this talent needs to be grown on the inside of companies. And, as the OP has clearly shown, there's a generational gap in work ethic (for some folk...not all) that's not helping.

And government isn't the answer...

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AMEN! ... in fact, the government is the biggest part of the problem ...

I am literally SWAMPED with work right now – and trying just to get my "to do list" in order for today – but I'm going to take a few seconds out and type this up anyway ...

the "minimum wage" law is one of the DUMBEST things that our idiotic government has done to us – collectively as a country – and individually as citizens ...

I'm 68 years old – and back when I was growing up, every time you saw a brick mason, a carpenter, a plumber, an electrician, and so on – right there – working along side him – would be at least one or two "helpers" ... these were usually young guys who would carry the tools, pick up the clutter – and generally "help" with the job ... the tradesman would only pay the helper about a dollar or two a day ... certainly not a "living wage" as the politicians would say – but that was NOT the point ...

the point was that the helper was LEARNING THE TRADE ...

fast forward to the enlightened times of today ...

when was the last time that you saw a brick mason, a carpenter, a plumber, an electrician, or so on – with a "helper" ??? ... personally I haven't seen that in YEARS ... that's because now the "helper" must (by law) be paid a "living wage" – even though he's only useful for carrying the tools - and picking up the clutter ...

so – and here's the punchline ...

where does a person go these days to learn a trade? ... whatever answer you come up with - I'll guarantee that it won't be as good as the way it used to be done ...

Hi Ronnie

I think an overriding problem with apprentices in the UK is a lack of a general work ethic, the idea of a real days work has not been installed correctly, either at school, collage or home. I suspect it stems from the Thatcher years of the 80’s where the UK was to focus on the service industries to cost of manufacturing and wearing overalls is seen a demeaning, It doesn’t help that the approved apprentice wages for teenagers less then £3.00 an hour so the incentive is not there and it reinforces the stereotype.
For us, when we’ve look for apprentices we have always gone for attitude over aptitude, and aptitude over qualifications, we also pay a bit over the odds, it can help with confidence and responsibility. Sometimes it works but we’ve still lost people in less than a week, it’s usually the site work that does it. I always like their little face when I say “met you here tomorrow at 5.30”.

There are good ones out there, the trick is finding them, as you’ve found out

Ron, we do have a minimum wage laws but to my mind it’s used as the de facto going rate for any basic unskilled or semi-skilled employment rather than the backstop. It not a “living wage” and so the employee still has to make claims for financial assistance from the state. The employer is basically subsided, this is good for the employer, not so good for the employee or the tax payer.

Ron I think our unions invented the minimum wage law. 1524 saw the earliest intervention of local government regulating the wage level. It is more designed to stop exploitation of the burger flippers and such ilk than it is for apprentices mind, but still has implications for all. There is a massive scheme going on right now trying to promote apprenticeships as the OP mentioned they will be giving financial aid for those that employ them.

The company I work for is based in Norway and they are dependent on apprentices. They mostly work at our premises, and most of our projects are fixed rate, so the client doesn't care.

Norway pays a big incentive, so its financially attractive. And we have found out that it is the only way to get in people, train them for a couple of years and figure them out. If they are good, they can stick around after they get their diploma.

We are always battling with the offshore oil industry, where the wages are going (have been going) through the roof. It sometimes takes a while to show the younger generation that there is benefits to working close to home .

So yes, we have and we are mostly happy with them. If they don't perform well, it is up to you to correct them. And for those that are not used to working, be glad you loose them after a couple of days.

Its all of the above and more

They all want EVERYTHING for nothing and are not wanting to put forth the effort to succeed, all they want to do is read their stupid *** text (while driving) and think they should be able to work at McD's and get paid 20 bucks and hour for flipping a hamburger

I served a 5 year apprenticeship in the IAMAW union then got into electrical and on both I watched, helped and learned, I also washed dishes and never thought I should be paid more just because, I knew I had to earn it

Now they see the "not" reality TV and they think they should just make big bucks because everyone else is doing it

Maybe I should stay away from this subject...

I work in timber board manufacture and we have an apprentice intake every year, but we do also have a large workforce.
Yes the quality is varied - some are keen to learn, others quite happy to play on their smartphones when you are not looking.
At least the guys that come here are vetted by others and also have to do their stint in college, but there is also the "my father/uncle works here, hence why I am here" with some of them.
But that is still no guarantee that the guys are good - a lot of it comes down to attitude, and some have to be policed...others still have to be let go before their time is out....

I see where you are coming from with a small company, where we as a larger employer do not want to pay for the "boy" to learn his trade, but he probably would not be with a contractor on our site until his 4th year, so that he is aware of the required safety issues.

Denmark:
In basic school we have real-life practice in companies at grade 7-8-9. One week each year. That gives the young people a taste of how it is, so that they don't get such a shock in case they later in life becomes exposed to 'real life'.

When it comes to apprenticeship, there is a relatively high drop-out rate. 50% I think.
The rest that stays in to the end get quite good at it.
It is important that the employer gives the apprentices reasonable interesting tasks, and not just sees them as low-fare helpers for the skilled workers.

There is no doubt about it that this is a really important issue with all developed countries. Young people everywhere have little knowledge about this way of education, and how can they ? They dont see it in the media. When was there a TV-series about the life of an apprentice in a company like ours ? I think this is a self-enhancing trend. When there are fewer young people going into apprenticeship, the general public knowledge drops.
Whenever real factories are encountered in the media it is almost always ridiculous stereotypes, both about the environment and the people.

powerplan said:

Hi Ronnie

I think an overriding problem with apprentices in the UK is a lack of a general work ethic, the idea of a real days work has not been installed correctly, either at school, collage or home. ......

For us, when we’ve look for apprentices we have always gone for attitude over aptitude, and aptitude over qualifications,......

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. It is true in the US as well.

I didn't have apprentices, but I hired a lot of engineering interns over the years. Some stunk, some were great, and a couple stayed with me for years. One even ended up earning a piece of the business. I've always said I can teach skills, but I can't teach attitude, work ethic, or character.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for those companies now that they are starved for good people. In the 70's my senior machine repairmen retired. The brass just expected to hire replacements off the street. They had already ended the apprentice program.
It goes farther that that. Two years ago I sat in a cube at a GM plant and listened to two engineers try to size a gear box ( very simple task, info in Browning catalogue). They then called in the rep, HE had to call the factory. Engineers were never taught that info and the sales guy was hired for his sales ability.
I now work part time in in a manufacturing plant. It's like watching the "amazin mets", there is a new disfunction every day.
I personally don't expect this country to recover it's manufacturing base.

this is such a big problem that even Cliff from Cheers is worried about it ... "worried" to the tune of $1,000,000 of his own money ...

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/your-world-cavuto/index.html#/v/4073051726001

where does a person go these days to learn a trade? ... whatever answer you come up with - I'll guarantee that it won't be as good as the way it used to be done ...[/quote]

Uncle Sam is a good way to learn not only a trade, but also all those other pieces of the puzzle that make young people into great workers and leaders.

You should keep an eye on Mike Rowe (Works). His SWEAT pledge pretty much sums it all up:

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-taboo/