Work is work, but this is ridiculus.

Soggy Canuck

Lifetime Supporting Member
Join Date
Jan 2008
Location
Vancouver
Posts
229
I have inherited another mangled machine upgrade (fifth one in two years). This one is particularly appalling.

The machine is a compactor-baler combination. Judging from the original components left in the MCC it was built in the late 70's early 80's. The control relays have all been pulled and replaced with an IDEC PLC. The outputs from the PLC have been interposed with a combination of SSR's and ice cube relays. The inputs have been interposed with ice cube relays.

The wiring has all been replaced with 18ga solid wire 30volt rated on 110Vac circuits. Relays have been taped into position on the finger tray and when they ran out of room, left lying loose in the bottom of the MCC. There is not one wire marker anywhere.
What safeties that have been retained have been wired back as discrete inputs to the PLC (Definitely NOT a safety rated PLC). The E-Stops (five of them) are each pulled into the PLC as individual N/O devices, with interposing relays no less.

Hydraulic overpressure saftey switches, access gate guard switches, and pull rope E-stop switches have been abandoned.

There is no MCR relay, and no dedicated safety circuit of any kind.

As of this post I have not been able to access the PLC program. My IDEC software is to old. I am not looking forward to seeing if the code matches the wiring.

This is the worst example of this type of workmanship I have run across in recent memory, but by no means is it an isolated incident.

As someone who takes pride in supplying professional automation service, this mickey mouse approach to machine upgrade really makes my blood boil.

Whats the worst project you have had to rescue from the "I have a laptop so I can fix anything brigade"?
 
This is the point where I would insist on them rebuilding and replacing the panel. Any "Upgrade" or "Refurbishment" we do has the safety brought up to current standard as minimum.... Of course, no one ever wants to pay.

Every project, no matter how new or old. Code is "free", so we're expected to fix everything with it.
 
The really funny part of this, is the company is out of pocket over $18,000.00 for this supposed upgrade.

There's no analog, or servo, and the I/O count is under 300. Where oh where did the money go? Certainly not on hardware.
 
The really funny part of this, is the company is out of pocket over $18,000.00 for this supposed upgrade.

There's no analog, or servo, and the I/O count is under 300. Where oh where did the money go? Certainly not on hardware.
From your description it sounds like most of that 18k went to the closest tavern.
 
Snip.....
As of this post I have not been able to access the PLC program. My IDEC software is too old. I am not looking forward to seeing if the code matches the wiring.
What version of the software do you have and do you have any backup files or printout available? I will try to help if I can.
 
I have inherited another mangled machine upgrade (fifth one in two years). This one is particularly appalling.

The machine is a compactor-baler combination. Judging from the original components left in the MCC it was built in the late 70's early 80's. The control relays have all been pulled and replaced with an IDEC PLC. The outputs from the PLC have been interposed with a combination of SSR's and ice cube relays. The inputs have been interposed with ice cube relays.

The wiring has all been replaced with 18ga solid wire 30volt rated on 110Vac circuits. Relays have been taped into position on the finger tray and when they ran out of room, left lying loose in the bottom of the MCC. There is not one wire marker anywhere.
What safeties that have been retained have been wired back as discrete inputs to the PLC (Definitely NOT a safety rated PLC). The E-Stops (five of them) are each pulled into the PLC as individual N/O devices, with interposing relays no less.

Hydraulic overpressure saftey switches, access gate guard switches, and pull rope E-stop switches have been abandoned.

There is no MCR relay, and no dedicated safety circuit of any kind.

As of this post I have not been able to access the PLC program. My IDEC software is to old. I am not looking forward to seeing if the code matches the wiring.

This is the worst example of this type of workmanship I have run across in recent memory, but by no means is it an isolated incident.

As someone who takes pride in supplying professional automation service, this mickey mouse approach to machine upgrade really makes my blood boil.

Whats the worst project you have had to rescue from the "I have a laptop so I can fix anything brigade"?
...and very likley that the programmer was the same person who wired this and was "assisted" by an online forum.
Yes, people there are times when the best advice we can give is to "hire a professional".
 
In situations like these, I would write a formal report documenting the problems and having them sign the report and make a copy. Strictly from a liability standpoint. If someone got hurt, you will have at least notified them of the problems and have covered yourself.

The worst one I did was an injection mold machine. We just happened to be at the plant discussing a job when an old unit that was bought at a sale came in and didn't work. I had the owner open the panel door and a massive bundle of wires fell to the floor. All wire labels went flying. all the wire was corroded. Found the problem, closed the door, quoted the job, and fortunately didn't get it. Found out later the one who got the job lost money big time due to undocumented and improper changes.

regards,
james
 
The worst one I did was an injection mold machine. We just happened to be at the plant discussing a job when an old unit that was bought at a sale came in and didn't work. I had the owner open the panel door and a massive bundle of wires fell to the floor. All wire labels went flying. all the wire was corroded. Found the problem, closed the door, quoted the job, and fortunately didn't get it. Found out later the one who got the job lost money big time due to undocumented and improper changes

I agree with nightmares like that quote it high and hope you.dont get it...


As for lack of workmanship... I so far only work on old stuff (haven't played with logix5000 since school) and I see nightmares everywhere... poor.documantation... lack of following the standard laid out by the original. program which makes it a nightmare to troubleshoot. but the one that ****ed me off is when someone adds a single new device and doesn't label any of the wires... that drives me up the wall... ok you.were out of.labels order some or even white tape and maker is better than nothing. and as for your customer they should be going after the guys who did the original work for not completing the Contract or otherwise sue them...

PS I enjoy seeing more Canadians on here. lol
 
...and very likley that the programmer was the same person who wired this and was "assisted" by an online forum.
Yes, people there are times when the best advice we can give is to "hire a professional".

I agree but maybe I am the exception. I am Dual Ticket instrumentation and electrical I have very basic training from a friend of mine coupled with Logixpro and on here a bunch coupled with smaller projects and deciphering how other people have done things. I believe the most important things my friend taught me are documentation,standardization, and thorough testing/commissioning of the system. Also shout out. to.Ron Beaufort
for his YouTube video that explained very well how a plc can react differently than a relay logic panel (which I undestand thoroughly already, but is rare for a younger guy ) that job sounds brutal but sadly is all to common.

Another thing I don't like is when brands are not specified companies will use the most oddball ones. either to be cheap and/or because it's oddball and less people are used to it... when not.specified I'd rather send a request for info or clarification on the matter first.
 
I agree but maybe I am the exception. I am Dual Ticket instrumentation and electrical I have very basic training from a friend of mine coupled with Logixpro and on here a bunch coupled with smaller projects and deciphering how other people have done things. I believe the most important things my friend taught me are documentation,standardization, and thorough testing/commissioning of the system. Also shout out. to.Ron Beaufort
for his YouTube video that explained very well how a plc can react differently than a relay logic panel (which I undestand thoroughly already, but is rare for a younger guy ) that job sounds brutal but sadly is all to common.

Another thing I don't like is when brands are not specified companies will use the most oddball ones. either to be cheap and/or because it's oddball and less people are used to it... when not.specified I'd rather send a request for info or clarification on the matter first.
I do not refer to the self taught, nothing wrong there as it is what these forums do best, 'teach the self taught' along with eliminating the need for some to read the manuals. :)
The problem comes where once in a while I see a request for help that is obviously 'way' above the knowledge of and is obvious that they really don't care about learning they just need to know how to fix this one complex problem and typically want free code. (n)
 
Oh fair enough I do t like people wasting my time when they don't want to learn... had a guy with me one day. was going to show him how to do ethernet ends and he asked me if I'd be offended if he asked me to go F myself... I said no and it was his loss. 2 years later he asks our boss for me on a job to show him how so I said the same thing. he didn't like that. haha
 
35 year old fire protection system failure.
utilizing 32 relays, and a dozen fire sensors.
I had less than 24 hours to design and implement something to get the Plant back in operation.

The relay logic was not understood by any of the engineers working for the manufacture.

12 hours later and a AB Pico controller...(IT'S ALL I HAD) we were operational again.
 
Some jobs start out best with a sawzall and a dumpster on casters.

And that includes the code. If the wiring is that poor, and the panel "design" that ugly, do you think you will gain anything useful by looking at the existing logic?

This sounds like a "start from scratch" project, and I agree to give a high quote and then if you get the job, at least you have some padding in the price to cover the demo time and re-write. Maybe it is just me, but I really get more of a kick out of tossing old garbage in the trash and starting completely over than I do from untangling some otherbuddy's web of "field fit" mess.
 
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