@#! Vendor locked?

arlenjacobs

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It's time to dream...

Q1 If you had a new project and could choose any plc/io/motion/hmi/drive vendor, how would you decide what to use?

Q2 and, why aren't you living that dream today?

Support used to be high on my list. But I am starting to rethink that.

This is my new list in priority
1. Engineer - time/pain used for software and programming, bugs & patches
2. Product - tech specs and lasts in the field
3. Support - phone, manuals, online, local engineers
4. Available - lead times, local replacements, can buy for X years, easy to order
5. Price - hard costs to buy product/license. any support/repair/etc. $ would be in above items.


What's your list?
 
In a dream world, price wouldn't be an issue, so that is pretty much in the back. But in the real world, not so much..

What about reliability? This goes hand in hand with availability.

Support is two fold in my eyes. It is great to have a great person available somewhere to help you, even if it costs money, but I rather have a huge internet database/forum available. Usually **** hits the fan at 11 pm on a Christmas eve that falls on a Sunday.

Engineer, as in user friendly. Both for me as the engineer and the client as the user.
 
Price was the very thing that set me off. More money doesn't mean the best.
But when you step back and ask why are you putting up with all this !@#$, for what?
Is it that difficult to change vendors?


"If my father was a horse thief..."
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=1782

"There is smoke ballast inside the Drive"
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=65726&page=4

"It's kinda schizophrenic"
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=87485&page=3

"Golden Nugget status"
http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=14763
 
Last edited:
Is it that difficult to change vendors?

When a factory has many PLC's from one vendor yes it is very very hard to change. If they have that many PLC's they usually have many people working with them, you then have to retrain them all. Spare parts are also an issue
What happens when you change and it don't work out.

As said earlier support is what you need the most, paying for a support contract you don't use often or never is what burns me up. Most of the upper end systems are very die hard systems, you get what you pay for. But software and support can be too much for the smaller guy.
 
It's time to dream...

Q1 If you had a new project and could choose any plc/io/motion/hmi/drive vendor, how would you decide what to use?

It would be a ControlLogix PLC, Flex or Point IO, PowerFlex drives, additional IO that has AOPs for the ControlLogix PLC would be fine. Everything over Ethernet.

Ignition for SCADA/HMI.

Simply becuase I know these platforms so well. The less time it takes me to make hardware and software to simply 'work' in the first place the more time I have to create a really good control system. I'm extremely tired of having to dig trough manuals for other vendors to figure out the basics. My customers prefer ladder, and don't mind limited structured text. So the Logix platform is very good.

I'll pay for the Rockwell hardware because it's easy for me to identify the value, customers request it and overall it's pretty good stuff. Not perfect, but pretty good. I am happy with the support I get from them as well. SCADA software is where the real pain is, and dealing with FTView, Wonderware....only makes life harder. Since I got an opportunity to use Ignition, things got much easier and I could provide a better control system. Its exciting to see what I can do with it.

It's time to dream...
Q2 and, why aren't you living that dream today?

Because I got burnt out on project work and needed to step away from it for awhile, now I'm dealing with 'other' vendors of software and hardware. Pulling my hair out over simple tasks. I'm in a sales support role, not a project or maintenance role. I don't mind learning a new platform, but some of the tasks I need to do aren't intuitive and hunting for manuals and guides across support sites and the internet is not very gratifying.

It is a royal pain to switch platforms because of the efficiency you lose.
 
When a factory has many PLC's from one vendor yes it is very very hard to change.

It is a royal pain to switch platforms because of the efficiency you lose.

So, once you start with brand X it's for life? Upgrades, replacements, new equipment all go down road X?
I think that's what I'm trying to figure out; how do you decide it's time to change?
or, how do you help someone else see that?


Paully, you changed to Ignition. How'd that happen?
 
depends on how deep your in

So, once you start with brand X it's for life? Upgrades, replacements, new equipment all go down road X?
I think that's what I'm trying to figure out; how do you decide it's time to change?
or, how do you help someone else see that?

If you are only in to PLS's on a small scale, no problem. But if you have a large amount 20+ I don't see why you would change, if you have that many they MUST of been ok at one time for your application
 
So, once you start with brand X it's for life? Upgrades, replacements, new equipment all go down road X?
I think that's what I'm trying to figure out; how do you decide it's time to change?
or, how do you help someone else see that?

No it isn't 'brand X' for life. My example is from a System Integrator viewpoint and caters to very large process systems, where the less time you spend on tedious PLC programming (IO mapping, device control logic, sequencing logic..etc) means either more time to focus on the process and what needs to happen, or it reduces the overall labor hours involved making you more cost competitive.

So investing into a brand platform, say ControlLogix and creating standard code and AOIs to handle the tedious stuff, and creating tools to generate the tedious logic are invaluable. You make an investment to become more efficient. Say 50% of the PLC logic required is all common stuff for all your projects, how you control a valve, motor, temperature PID, sequence logic. Well if 50% of the required PLC logic can be created in 10% of the time, that's good stuff. But you only get there by making the investment.

Moving to another platform means your existing code structures and philosophy may or may not work. You have to re-write some code, make variations and deviations, of course understand the core instruction sets as well. Then if you need to make automated tools to make development more efficient, its an undertaking. Of course keeping someone on-staff that understands it all is a challenge too.

Now, if your talking about small systems, less than 50 IO points, well 'brute-force' will probably prevail and you can get away with it on most any platform w/o much risk. But on large systems, that's a huge risk to change up the platform unless there is a very compelling reason to do so.

Paully, you changed to Ignition. How'd that happen?

Wondware continued to be a thorn in my side, costs to much, InTouch is dated, System Platform is bloated, and trying to interact with databases with scripting is just soooooooooo early 2000. FTVIew is about the same. The sales team sold a system which required a real in-depth recipe management system. A true batching solution was overkill and too expensive, CSV files where not practical. It needed to be database driven. While I've done custom database recipe management systems on InTouch prior, it simply wasn't good enough. Especially when it came to getting the recipe data to the PLC. Scripting that is not robust. This required almost 1000 different setpoints per recipe . Ignition with it's simple database connectivity, and transaction groups ensured robust results. It was also nice to work with Python for any scripting I required, really made things much easier than scripting in VBA or QuickScript.
 
If you are only in to PLS's on a small scale, no problem. But if you have a large amount 20+ I don't see why you would change, if you have that many they MUST of been ok at one time for your application


...or OK to those who came before...
 
ok: 20+ units installed, you have spares, and trained staff then you stay there. Wait 15years for it to go obsolete and replace at that time. Honestly, that's a fair plan at the end site; spares, training, and risk = real $$$.

Paully, I give a big +1 for your story there.
the less time you spend on tedious PLC programming (IO mapping, device control logic, sequencing logic..etc) means either more time to focus on the process and what needs to happen.
That sums up exactly why I ranked Engineering #1 when choosing a new vendor.
There are only 168 hours in a week. If you waste hours on tedious coding that means less hours to focus on the real solution.
"Do I need 5us updates?" "Will the next person understand this mess?" "Will kwade love these PLCs like the relics they are?"
 
Standardisation is fine and i recognise the fact that maintenance guys and stores holding is a problem for many end users

however most PLC manufacturers move on and these comanies cling to the older PLC they have in the stores..at least for a while.

So the new machines get specced with out of date hardware which becomes a problem in itself

IMHO thes comapanies should review say every 5 years even if they stick to the same vendor but change their hardware specs.

I was passed a tender which was asking for SLC504 last week lol.. Yes I quoted a CompactLogix and put in an explaination
 

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