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-   -   Anyone know Creonics? (http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=18727)

dalem November 16th, 2005 09:28 AM

Anyone know Creonics?
 
I have a Creonics issue here, but don't know where to turn. We have a feeder with a 2 axis motion control board made by Creonics. (only using one axis in this machine.) Over the years, we have had to have a board rebooted and/or reprogrammed by the machine mfg due to the watchdog light not coming back on, way too many times. The mfg has been very vague in explaining why this happens and the only resolve is to send them the bad board and $400 (now $460) to have it rebooted. We have done everything they have suggested with filters, isolation transformers and shielding, yet one of these boards still dies for no appearent reason. (Feb/05, June/05, now Nov/05 are the 3 most recent). Prior to this year, the issue has been quiet for about 2.5 years. All in all, these 2 boards have been rebooted probably at least 10 times each over the years.

If any one has any idea what might cause the watchdog light to go out and need rebooting, what is needed to hook up to the board to reset fault(s), where info can be found and/or other info, I'd much appreciate such.

There are 3 boards stacked together. The bottom (main?) board is part number "PC-121-0598". The next board (Thumbwheel expansion) is a "PC-132-0989".

Thank you,
Dale

Steve Bailey November 16th, 2005 10:10 AM

Creonics is now owned by Rockwell (Allen Bradley). When it was still Creonics, the company was located on Etna Road in Lebanon, NH. To the best of my knowledge, there is still an AB office at that location.

If you can find a telephone number for that location, you may be able to speak to someone who can remember back to the Creonics days and help you out.

OkiePC November 16th, 2005 01:25 PM

I have used a lot of Creonics and early AB/Creonics Max controllers. The watchdog timeout is usually caused by a hardware failure, but a poorly designed application program can cause it to timeout also. I still have a few machines using a MAX Control motion controller that is programmed with Accel. I have one machine that was programmed with GML v 3.9.1. The Max control has been virtually bulletproof. We hadn't even had to connect to one in over ten years unitl a few days ago. I found out for sure that Accel and GML 3.9.1 will not communicate when installed with windows 2000. We have an old win95 laptop stashed away for this very reason.

A/B bought Creonics and put their wrapper on its Max Control calling it the S-Class IMC. Over the years they've changed the firmware may times and added features etc. Most of what A/B has done is okay, but they screwed up the auto tune function, which works very well in a Max Control, but is virtually useless in S-Class and 1394 controllers. A/B did make the controllers much easier to communicate with and troubleshoot with the introduction of GML and GML Commander. (Commander does not support the older Max Controls.)

You can still find a lot of help by calling AB tech support. I have even gotten them to send me manuals that are not available on the web.

Does the motion controller have a name on it? I don't recognize the part numbers you listed. What you have must be even older than my antiques. You will be much better off if you upgraded to something more modern. You can replace most any motion controller with a controllogix processor and it's analog motion control card(s).

Paul C.

dalem November 16th, 2005 04:37 PM

The top board says:
Allen Bradley CO 1991 Creonics, PC-643-0891, EAA with enc loss.

Second board:
Copyright 1988, Creonics Inc.
PC-132-0989 Rev A,
Thumbwheel expansion.

Bottom board:
Copyright 1987, Creonics inc., PC-121-0588 Rev A, SAM-EX MCC

Only because I'm suspicious of things I can not see, I sometimes wonder if they programmed in something to shut it down or forgot to program in something to prevent something mike a counter or math regester from over flowing.

One person at the mfg says they have someone else reprogram the board. Another told me on the last one that they do it and that they can not tell me how to reset the board because they have to burn into the eeprom. Odly enough, these boards come back with the last set length still in them, Tells me that the program is not lost, at least entirely. I know I could easily demo such behavour with one one of our SLC500 here, just that I'd have a flashing a CPU fault indicator instead of turning off the watch dog light.

I also have been wondering, seeimg the last guy told me they burn the eeprom, why these 2 Creonics cards can not be rebooted each time at power up from the eeprom, like my SCLs do in some cases. Only thing changed for settings in the Creonics, is the length.

You mentioned GML and ??? and hooking up to your Max boards. Is there anything there that I can handle or acquire? The mfg of this machine was going to set us up with a cable and software and assistance, so that I could reboot these in house, then after about 3 more boards ($1200), backed out with the story that someone else does that programming for them. To begin with, they tried to scare me off with DOS based software stories, but I'm not too unfamilliar with DOS. (I didn't let that go of that until Win 95 was out and use DOS regurlarly to this day.)

(Okie, check for a PM from me.)

Thanks,
Dale

Steve Bailey November 16th, 2005 05:08 PM

I was using Creonics products back when those boards were designed. Your refeference to SAM-EX MCC triggered a memory of a DOS program called SAMLINK that was used to program Creonics motion controllers. I'll see if I still have a copy of it and if there any help files associated with it.

As I recall they were a decent motion controller, although somewhat limited. In fact one of my favorite application stories involves a Creonics motion controller at a plant in Appleton Wisconsin.

The application called for a transfer mechanism that had to stop at a position that depended on the length of the product it was moving. The length was entered from an HMI panel and affected quite a few settings on the machine. The particular model of motion controller only had a limited number of ways to enter a target move position. You could enter it with a two-digit thumbwheel or you you could use the thumbwheel to pick one of 99 predefined moves. Neither of those options worked for us. We pretty much had to be able to let an operator pick a random value anywhere in the range that the mechanism could cover. So we came up with a creative solution. We programmed a BASIC module in the PLC to send a sequence of ASCII commands to the motion controller's serial port.

Stop execution of the motion controller program.
Put the motion controller into edit mode.
Jump to line xxx of the program.
Edit line xxx with the new target position.
Exit edit mode.
Restrt the motion controller program.

Essentially, it was one computer reprogramming another.

Anyway, if I can find a working copy of the SAMLINK program, I'll be in touch. I think that SAMLINK is nothing more than a dumb terminal program like hyperterminal. If the help files exist, they may give you an idea of the command set to program the thing.

dalem November 16th, 2005 05:56 PM

Boy, I ran home for lunch yesterday, was told I had to run an errand to Appleton, did so and was back to work in my 1 hour time frame.

Sure appreciate the responses and any further help that may develope. Over the years I have found nothing on these boards and the mfg has been little help.

Thanks a lot.
Dale

Steve Bailey November 16th, 2005 08:09 PM

Dale,

Well, I found my Creonics files including SAMLINK and EASYMCL. SAMLINK is a file upload/download program. EASYMCL is the editor for creating motion programs. Unfortunately the help file for EASYMCL doesn't include a list of the available commands, so it looks like you'll need to get your hands on the manual for the unit you have. If you can get the manuals for your motion controller and it uses the Creonics MCL language, then these programs may be of some help to you. If so, I'll be happy to send you a copy. My recollection is that you didn't have to purchase the software. It was included when you bought the controller.

Of course, your problem may not be in the motion controller. It might be in the amplifier (drive) portion. If that is the case, you may have no recourse but to continue to send it back to the factory to be reset.

The application I mentioned was installed at Appleton Papers back in 1988. It was on their folio sheeter for carbonless paper. I have no idea if they are still using the machine, and if so, if it still has the Creonics motion controllers. I haven't had any communication with them for at least ten years, maybe longer. The last contact I had was with a guy named Kevin Sargalis. Kevin worked with me at the company that built the machine and eventually took a position with Appleton Papers. It may be worth making a few phone calls to Appleton Papers to see if their maintenance peole have any documentation on Creonics motion controllers of the same vintage as yours. Good luck.

dalem August 4th, 2006 09:28 AM

HI Folks,

I have one of these boards that I must do something with today. The watchdog went out on this board the other day. I hooked up my old laptop to it last night and got in and found some parameters that must have reset to defaults. I went into the spare working board, did a capture of text and then set the bad board to match the working one. Appearently I missed something, as this board does not work, even though the WD light comes on. Once enabled, after a few moments, I get a fault and the WD shuts off. I'm going to try and locate info I missed.

For now, my question is as follows.

I have the Access software to configure this board. It has APPLINK, which I should be able to receive the whole application then send that application to another board. When I try to receive, I get an error, stating "time out" and MCC failed to respond. I communicate in terminal mode just fine. Any ideas on what may be preventing receiving the application from thes eboards?

Thanks in advance,
Dale

dalem August 4th, 2006 01:03 PM

Update. Found a few items I missed the first time through, while comparing settings in good board to bad board. I did not check/edit the GAINS and the Velocity settings. Edited those to match, and away we go.

Still interested in any info pertaining to receiving whole application info from a good board, so that I have a back up of the whole kaboodle available and thus make it easier/faster to restore in the future. I'm sure this machine will be upgraded, replaced and/or a similar second line installed, somewhere down the line, but given the fact that these boards loosing their parameters periodically, there's no other problems with the system.

Julian February 22nd, 2007 12:08 PM

Creonics
 
We are working with a system that uses an Allen Bradley servo controller model MAX CONTROL and an SLC 500 plc. The controller doesn’t seem to be working properly and we are going to replace it.

The problem is that we have very little information about this module, and couldn’t find anything on the internet, since it is obsolete.

There are 3 status leds on the front panel of the controller, and the first 2 of them always remain on. We know this is a fault code, but we don´t know what it means.

OkiePC February 22nd, 2007 03:27 PM

What are you going to replace it with? Upgrade it?

If you intend to troubleshoot the Max Control, you will need the correct programming software and the original application.

The units I worked with were programmed using a DOS program called Accel. Some later firmwares allowed programming using early versions of GML (after Allen Bradley took over).

THe last time I needed a manual, I was able to get it from an Allen-Bradley support technician. It was not on their knowbase or anywhere on the web, but the guy emailed it to me after a lengthy phone call.

That was at my previous employer, so I don't still have a copy.

I do know that the old books have been scanned into .pdf files and you can get them if you can get ahold of the right people on the phone.

Creonics motion controllers were very reliable, just not too easy to troubleshoot. The eventually evolved into the Allen-Bradley S-Class motion controllers which were much less reliable, but much more user friendly.

About the only problems we ever had were power supplies and motors/cables. Once in a great while the app would get corrupted if we didn't have the memory protect jumper correctly installed.

Wish I could offer more help...

Paul

jonney September 6th, 2012 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OkiePC (Post 128355)
I have used a lot of Creonics and early AB/Creonics Max controllers. The watchdog timeout is usually caused by a hardware failure, but a poorly designed application program can cause it to timeout also. I still have a few machines using a MAX Control motion controller that is programmed with Accel. I have one machine that was programmed with GML v 3.9.1. The Max control has been virtually bulletproof. We hadn't even had to connect to one in over ten years unitl a few days ago. I found out for sure that Accel and GML 3.9.1 will not communicate when installed with windows 2000. We have an old win95 laptop stashed away for this very reason.

A/B bought Creonics and put their wrapper on its Max Control calling it the S-Class IMC. Over the years they've changed the firmware may times and added features etc. Most of what A/B has done is okay, but they screwed up the auto tune function, which works very well in a Max Control, but is virtually useless in S-Class and 1394 controllers. A/B did make the controllers much easier to communicate with and troubleshoot with the introduction of GML and GML Commander. (Commander does not support the older Max Controls.)

You can still find a lot of help by calling AB tech support. I have even gotten them to send me manuals that are not available on the web.

Does the motion controller have a name on it? I don't recognize the part numbers you listed. What you have must be even older than my antiques. You will be much better off if you upgraded to something more modern. You can replace most any motion controller with a controllogix processor and it's analog motion control card(s).

Paul C.

How to set Transducer Counts/Mtr Rev and Motor type for Drive/Motor 1394 configuration in GML 3.9.1 (IMC 1394 S Class Compact,4100-234-RL)? The motor is Lenze MCA21X17 with 2048PPR TTL Encoder (A,A not,B,B not and Z,Z not).

OkiePC September 6th, 2012 06:59 PM

Working from memory, look under axis configuration. There should be tabs for each of those details you mention. As for the setup in the amp, I think you will need to choose a kW size that meets or exceeds the motor, and custom adjust its current limits also but I think it should work.

I used 1394 systems with A/B resolver motors in most cases, but we did use them with encoder feedback too. IIRC, they had two choices for encoder voltage, 5v and 24v (this may be an s-class memory).

jonney September 6th, 2012 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OkiePC (Post 501753)
Working from memory, look under axis configuration. There should be tabs for each of those details you mention. As for the setup in the amp, I think you will need to choose a kW size that meets or exceeds the motor, and custom adjust its current limits also but I think it should work.

I used 1394 systems with A/B resolver motors in most cases, but we did use them with encoder feedback too. IIRC, they had two choices for encoder voltage, 5v and 24v (this may be an s-class memory).

Not GML Commander. I used GML 3.9.1.
In my old program, someone set the Counts/Mtr Rev 10000 or 8192 or else. the encoder is 1024 PPR actually. But the program works,why?

OkiePC September 6th, 2012 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonney (Post 501759)
Not GML Commander. I used GML 3.9.1.
In my old program, someone set the Counts/Mtr Rev 10000 or 8192 or else. the encoder is 1024 PPR actually. But the program works,why?

The counts per motor revolution at the axis definition may include gearing and whatever else to get to whole engineering units like millimeters or degrees.

It has been too long for me to remember where you set the value for commutation versus the values used by your code to control the axis.

Can you post screen shots?

jonney September 7th, 2012 10:57 AM

Motor Type confuguration
 
3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by OkiePC (Post 501764)
The counts per motor revolution at the axis definition may include gearing and whatever else to get to whole engineering units like millimeters or degrees.

It has been too long for me to remember where you set the value for commutation versus the values used by your code to control the axis.

Can you post screen shots?

I have no clue to set up this parameter.
But according to my old line, this parameter is set by no uniform.
What are your thinking?

OkiePC September 7th, 2012 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonney (Post 501850)
I have no clue to set up this parameter.
But according to my old line, this parameter is set by no uniform.
What are your thinking?

Which is it that you are adding/modifying?

And, earlier, you said it is presently working fine, but you are needing to update the motor?

I have lost track of the question...what is it you have right now, and what is it that you want to do. Please don't be brief.

Nice screenshots...using them as raw servos, I don't think you get all the choice as if you had used them as linear or rotary axes. Those dialogs are much more expanded in later versions of GML, but the details are still there, just not necessarily all in one tidy location.

Not saying you should change that though, the whole application needs to be considered, how the logic flows already. Perhaps one of the virtuals masters these raw servo axes?

I would have to see the whole GML diagram and all the properties to properly analyze how it works before taking a stab at modification.

jonney September 8th, 2012 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OkiePC (Post 501879)
Which is it that you are adding/modifying?

And, earlier, you said it is presently working fine, but you are needing to update the motor?

Yes. I am doing commissioning on a new Lenze motor and Lenze inverter to replace original HR2000 inverter and Reliance motor. But the Lenze motor is shaking,unstable,hot and OC. so I suspect some parameters such as Transducer/Mtr revolutions or motor type set improperly. I checked 5 IMCs with total 13 GML program. The Transducer/Mtr revolutions and Motor type in original program are being set no uniform. I remember we have changed some encoders from 2048PPR to 1024PPR. And we never changed the Transducer/Mtr revolutions parameter,just changed K constant, but the motor is running OK.

OkiePC September 8th, 2012 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonney (Post 501943)
I checked 5 IMCs with total 13 GML program. The Transducer/Mtr revolutions and Motor type in original program are being set no uniform.

I don't understand that last part. Are you installing a new motor for which you have other examples to follow or is this your first attempt with this motor/amp combination?


Quote:

Originally Posted by jonney
I remember we have changed some encoders from 2048PPR to 1024PPR. And we never changed the Transducer/Mtr revolutions parameter,just changed K constant, but the motor is running OK.

If the gains are properly set, you can get away with this sometimes.

K-constant. that's the word I was looking for earlier. The K-constant is encoder pulses to engineering uints. The motor definitions page should match reality, but how it is wired can affect that. If you are using a quadrature encoder with 1024PPR, and the software is set for quadrature encoder it should match.

The signal itself should be verified when you tune.

You can do a "battery box test" in commander. I think it might be called something different in GML 3.x.

Basically it ignores the feedback and runs the amplifier/motor "open loop" you set the command voltage, and the servo follows it. During this test, you should see your k-constant and resulting position in engineering units match the behavior of the axis. If this is a linear axis, be very careful with this test. You can slam a motor to full speed and have it running into an end limit faster than the safety circuit can shut her down, all with a careless click...

If you do the marker test, you can verify your encoder is there and making signals. It doesn't prove the settings for motor rpm are correct, so your crazy acting motor may be simply due to this. I would set this up, run the battery box test and ensure that all is well and smooth and happy with the motor at several different speeds, then go back and tune the drive.

Autotuning is tricky with A/B Gml. If you enter the wrong values for the tests it will fail miserably and make a perfectly gently servo into a nervous wreck.

I had several systems that simply could not be autotuned with any tuning values...we simply had to turn the thing down to a crawl, and manually tune the machine over several hours, then record those values and they could be manually entered as good starting points on subsequent machines.

Hope this helps.
Paul

jonney September 14th, 2012 04:28 AM

Quote:

You can do a "battery box test" in commander. I think it might be called something different in GML 3.x.
The GML 3.9.1 is different with what you said. The auto tuning almost is rubbish without function. I can send you a cope of the software and my application.Please give me your email.
Quote:

K-constant. that's the word I was looking for earlier. The K-constant is encoder pulses to engineering uints. The motor definitions page should match reality, but how it is wired can affect that. If you are using a quadrature encoder with 1024PPR, and the software is set for quadrature encoder it should match.
The K-constant is just a scaling. I adjust it by MOVE command. In MOVE command window, I move 1000mm with speed 100, If the actual moved position is 1200, then I use a simple formula to compute a new K-Constant and do again for verification.
Quote:

I had several systems that simply could not be autotuned with any tuning values...we simply had to turn the thing down to a crawl, and manually tune the machine over several hours, then record those values and they could be manually entered as good starting points on subsequent machines.
The auto tuning almost is rubbish and not functional.
Recently, I failed to tuning a Lenze motor. The motor is drived by a Lenze 9300 servo inverter (EVS-9327-ES). The inverter itself is on speed mode with a close loop, GML also has a close loop. Two close loops make control unstable. The speed in GML is OK (199 to 200) but the output voltage is jumping from 1VDC to 6VDC. This jumping reference is sending to Inverter. It caused motor hot,shaking and 'gu,gu,gu' sound. I am still in struggling how to adjust parameters in inverter and GML.


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