tarik1978
Member
I was thinking about a turnstile with RFID reader to control the access of operators
Safety System design, Crazy Customer request
- Thread starter milmat1
- Start date
There's no way in hell I would do this. I like to sleep at night. You've obviously already realised how easy it would be to bypass/fool/circumvent that "safety" feature - quite apart from your reputation being ruined and being sued for all you've got, if an operator gets maimed or killed due to this system, could you live with yourself?
John Morris
Lifetime Supporting Member
+1 asf
Manglemender
Member
A few years ago I upgraded a solvent coater with a new drive and control system. The machine had guards around the coating heads with vacuum extraction but the customer insisted that they had to be able to run the machine without the guards in place (as they had previously). I told the engineering manager that as soon as he showed me his risk assessment showing that it was safe to do so, I wouldn't object to "him" removing the safety features that I had designed.
+1 ASF
Nick
+1 ASF
Nick
JohnCalderwood
Member
You can make an access system foolproof, but not necessarily operator-proof..
If there is a way round it, they will find it.
When you use lightguard systems, trapped key systems, RFID/turnstiles, it usually needs 2 to get round it, as while one stays inside, the other has to knowingly reset the safety system. We had one where the tech "had" to go inside the light curtain area, to check the moving carriage, and he got the apprentice to go outside and reset the safety circuit while he checked the "local operation". Nobody got injured, but they both got spotted doing so, and disciplined.
A counting mat can go wrong, they will have a way to reset it, then it will become common practice...
If there is a way round it, they will find it.
When you use lightguard systems, trapped key systems, RFID/turnstiles, it usually needs 2 to get round it, as while one stays inside, the other has to knowingly reset the safety system. We had one where the tech "had" to go inside the light curtain area, to check the moving carriage, and he got the apprentice to go outside and reset the safety circuit while he checked the "local operation". Nobody got injured, but they both got spotted doing so, and disciplined.
A counting mat can go wrong, they will have a way to reset it, then it will become common practice...
After talking to several other engineers etc, I have told my manager that I simply will not do it. Once the system is in place and the customer takes ownership of the machine, they can do whatever they want. But I refuse to integrate a system that I know isn't going to protect the operators. This is in the brick industry and the whole brick industry is known for ignoring safety and disabling safety systems etc..
Thank all of you for the great responses and information.
Thank all of you for the great responses and information.
John Morris
Lifetime Supporting Member
+++1 milmat1
Well done sir................
Well done sir................
keshik
Lifetime Supporting Member
I would imagine that because it is their plant, that they have to operate and so forth. It might also be different in Europe.
keshik
Lifetime Supporting Member
That doesn't mean that customers in the United States aren't going to try to. Most people aren't experts on safety, but that doesn't prevent them from assuming they are.
As an OEM, it always has everything to do with the customer.
Safety regulations exist, and what the customer wants should be legal (otherwise you'd have to walk away as an OEM). But when it comes to how a machine functions, how it's worked on, etc. The customer's requirements are very important.
When it comes to safety, there are numerous ways to skin that cat. And the customer's requirements should be taken into account. Regulations are not design guides. Proper designs meet the requirements of the regulations, but how you go about reaching those requirements definitely should have major customer input (or review/buy off)
ndzied1
Lifetime Supporting Member
Laws are a little bit different in the US vs. the EU.
In the US, from a criminal standpoint, the company who is using the equipment is responsible for providing a safe working environment for their employees. If there is an injury causing accident, then they are the ones that will be fined/sued for criminal charges, not the manufacturer of the machine.
However, the manufacturer of the machine will probably get sued in civil court (where you can sue anyone for anything) if the injury was of any severity.
TurpoUrpo
Lifetime Supporting Member
Just heads-up on one thing. If I understood correctly the current method. It is just as easy to let someone in as it is with any port (turnstile, key or similar method) it needs two people. Someone to enter the zone and another one to reset the light curtain muting. Naturally this is same for any system that controls access, not presence.
I would rather prefer having laser scanners to do the job of controlling if someone is in zone or not.
I would rather prefer having laser scanners to do the job of controlling if someone is in zone or not.
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