Control Panel suggestions

durallymax

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Sep 2017
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Looking for some suggestions/critiques of this panel I recently built. I'm fairly green in this area, first big panel and only a couple small ones before.

I have a couple more to do and figured I'd see if there's any mistakes to correct or suggestions that will make things better before I start them.

A couple notes : I do not work in this field, I'm a farmer and these are for my own use. I don't have standards to meet but do want the panels to be safe and reliable. Budget is limited. A lot of the ideas came from reading through the panel pic thread on here.

I don't have auto desk just graphing paper and Tiny Cad. I labeled the wires with their destination on each end to make troubleshooting easier without schematics. I do make wiring diagrams and this labeling does make that more difficult. I'm undecided on if I like it or not. On the smaller panels I just gave every wire a number, same on each end.

This panel runs a number of random things. I put marshaling cabinets where needed for the load side of devices it controls. I do not know what I will all connect to it in the future so it was built with that in mind.

Thanks

Edit: Will re-upload pics as soon as membership for this site upgrades.

20190810_200219_zpse7zwitti.jpg


20190810_201429_zpsikezc6xp.jpg


20190810_191709_zpskvo4tac3.jpg


20190810_191649_zpsehfbf9wo.jpg
 
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That is a great looking control panel. You may have a second career in your spare time from farming. (If there is any) A question I have is why the lower terminal strips for field wiring, instead of going directly to the Ziplink modules?
Also, depending on the application, is there a need for a Master Control Relay and/or Safety Relay?
 
Depending on your equipment, it may help to power individual devices from a small mini-breaker, so that if you have a wiring problem in the field (like a junction box fills with water ) you lose power only to the affected device, not the whole panel or a substantial portion.

We normally use a mini breaker for a whole motor starter. For a really big motor start (200HP and above), we put a separate mini breaker on the starter output. As the larger starter coil ages, it takes more and more current, until it .. cooks .. and then it trips the output mini breaker only but we can still see that power is on, just that the motor was commanded to start and did not start.

I'm not sure that is worth the effort on your installation.

I agree with @jaden ... NICE PANEL!
 
That is a great looking control panel. You may have a second career in your spare time from farming. (If there is any) A question I have is why the lower terminal strips for field wiring, instead of going directly to the Ziplink modules?
Also, depending on the application, is there a need for a Master Control Relay and/or Safety Relay?

I don't believe there is a need for a safety relay. Nothing it controls puts anyone or anything significant at risk, but I will admit I am not well read in the applications of an MCR or safety relay so it may be something I need to look at in the future.

I actually built this panel last year with things wired directly to zip link. I thought it was a bit messy hooking field wiring up(although the layout could've been much better). I use multi conductor cables to run elsewhere and needed to land them somewhere for commons, but those were never close by. It felt like wires were crossing each other into a tangled mess. With a better layout of the ziplinks I probably could've made it work for Discrete I/O, but I still like the triple level blocks(not these specifically, too flimsy, not a fan) for sensors since everything lands in one spot.

This is a picture of how it was after I finished it last year when I only had a couple things wired to it.

20190810_200737_zpscchyynm1.jpg
 
Nice work for not having any guidance or experience other then pictures on the forum.

1) main disconnects typically go in the upper RIGHT corner. Many reasons why but mostly beacause of how the door shuts, if it is a through the door disconnect, will work better.

2) no reason to go to a seperate terminal block if youre using the zip ports.

3) Wiring conventions must make sense for whoever has to work on the equipment, in this case its you. There are standards per say, see (NFPA79).

4) Also be careful if your sate or AHJ has any UL standards for industrial control panels. There are multiple scenarios in which this may or may not be required, or could be considered a liability in the event of a failure and whether someone other than yourself was hurt by a failure. If you hire an outside electrician power to YOUR panel in a UL required state then most wont run the power unless a sticker is present.

5) Keep like things with like things, breakers together, not next to each device. (My personal preference)

6) If it is necessary to separate a wire way you can purchase dividers instead of running two pieces side by side, nothing wrong with what you did, it just looks cleaner with a solid cover and and divider you cant see with the cover on.

7) I also see a lot of jumpers, make sure you are aware of how they interface with the blocks and this is what you want to occur.
 
Depending on your equipment, it may help to power individual devices from a small mini-breaker, so that if you have a wiring problem in the field (like a junction box fills with water ) you lose power only to the affected device, not the whole panel or a substantial portion.

We normally use a mini breaker for a whole motor starter. For a really big motor start (200HP and above), we put a separate mini breaker on the starter output. As the larger starter coil ages, it takes more and more current, until it .. cooks .. and then it trips the output mini breaker only but we can still see that power is on, just that the motor was commanded to start and did not start.

I'm not sure that is worth the effort on your installation.

I agree with @jaden ... NICE PANEL!

Circuit protection was/is an area I don't feel I can find a good answer on and something I struggle with the most.

I did individual fusing on each output for the 1A output cards. I contemplated mini circuit breakers, but the protection TB's I bought wouldn't allow them to be mounted side by each with the CB's installed. Not a fan of those TB's at all. Cost was also a factor and I decided to just go the fuse route instead. I'm still not entirely happy with it because ATC/ATO fuses sit deep in them, making removal a bit cumbersome.

Past that I fused each analog card seperate, and fused each common on the Discrete In and 100mA Discrete Out.

The marshaling stuff outside of this cabinet generally has pre-existing protection already installed. I don't have anything but 24VDC going in or out of this cabinet (except 120v for the Power supplies).
 
Thanks

1) main disconnects typically go in the upper RIGHT corner. Many reasons why but mostly beacause of how the door shuts, if it is a through the door disconnect, will work better.

Should be an easy fix for next time. I only need through door if higher voltage is present correct? Or do rules vary on that as well?

2) no reason to go to a seperate terminal block if youre using the zip ports.

I explained my initial reasoning above, not sure I like it. Halfway through running those wires I questioned it. It was nice for hooking the field wiring up. Would it be easier if I just ran a strip of blocks below that duct for the commons and such? I'd love some new ideas for that.

3) Wiring conventions must make sense for whoever has to work on the equipment, in this case its you. There are standards per say, see (NFPA79).

I've read through some of the standards and then interpretations on here, it was the least productive of my research. The recommendation that stuck out to me was green is ground, white is neutral, pick something and stick with it, then document it.

4) Also be careful if your sate or AHJ has any UL standards for industrial control panels. There are multiple scenarios in which this may or may not be required, or could be considered a liability in the event of a failure and whether someone other than yourself was hurt by a failure. If you hire an outside electrician power to YOUR panel in a UL required state then most wont run the power unless a sticker is present.

My electrician does the higher voltage wiring and conduit runs. They're better at it than me and its nice to have another set of eyes making sure things are safe and proper. Agricultural electric has different standards here.

5) Keep like things with like things, breakers together, not next to each device. (My personal preference)

Is it better to have like devices near each other or like power sources?

The top power distribution area is divided by power source. The two CBs to the left are for the power supplies, they're 120v. The two to the right of the power supplies are 24VDC for PLC and HMI. The left set of terminals is for power supply 1 which has UPS backup and runs HMI, PLC and important things. The right set is power supply 2 which just runs I/O.

6) If it is necessary to separate a wire way you can purchase dividers instead of running two pieces side by side, nothing wrong with what you did, it just looks cleaner with a solid cover and and divider you cant see with the cover on.

That would be slick. I originally put separate 1" covers on the middle two and thought it looked bad. Found out a 2.25" cover fits nice over them. The outer ones I left as individuals because only one would need to be removed for field wiring and the duct was already cut in a way that I thought worked best with two.

A divider would've made things much cleaner, I will look into them for the next one. Thanks.

7) I also see a lot of jumpers, make sure you are aware of how they interface with the blocks and this is what you want to occur.

Yes. They just provide a common across the entire set for the I/O side. I don't know that its proper practice, but I thought it would be nicer with field wiring especially since my field wiring is changing as I go.
 
Thanks



Should be an easy fix for next time. I only need through door if higher voltage is present correct? Or do rules vary on that as well?

Disconnecting means will vary, sorry for being vague but there are lots of scenarios where required or not



I explained my initial reasoning above, not sure I like it. Halfway through running those wires I questioned it. It was nice for hooking the field wiring up. Would it be easier if I just ran a strip of blocks below that duct for the commons and such? I'd love some new ideas for that.

Whatever works for you but you have to consider you are doubling your margin for error and failure adding any unnecessary connection point to come loose, corrode, potentially short, etc...

I've read through some of the standards and then interpretations on here, it was the least productive of my research. The recommendation that stuck out to me was green is ground, white is neutral, pick something and stick with it, then document it.

You can read NFPA 79 for free online but you cant print it unless you purchase a copy. In the 2015 edition section 13.2.4 explains wiring colors, this is a widely accepted standard for machine builders in the US. NFPA 79 is the electrical standard for industrial machinery, even though its AG your panel is considered an industrial control panel


My electrician does the higher voltage wiring and conduit runs. They're better at it than me and its nice to have another set of eyes making sure things are safe and proper. Agricultural electric has different standards here.

You only need to focus on your AHJ for now, If you decide to supply outside your own realm then you will comply with the AHJ of where the panel is being installed

Is it better to have like devices near each other or like power sources?

Heat dissipation should be considered, manufactures post required spacing measurements with their documentation, if heat generating hardware is together then spacing may be larger, if its separate then you may save panel room. For me I feel like things are easier to troubleshoot if like things are together


The top power distribution area is divided by power source. The two CBs to the left are for the power supplies, they're 120v. The two to the right of the power supplies are 24VDC for PLC and HMI. The left set of terminals is for power supply 1 which has UPS backup and runs HMI, PLC and important things. The right set is power supply 2 which just runs I/O.



That would be slick. I originally put separate 1" covers on the middle two and thought it looked bad. Found out a 2.25" cover fits nice over them. The outer ones I left as individuals because only one would need to be removed for field wiring and the duct was already cut in a way that I thought worked best with two.

A divider would've made things much cleaner, I will look into them for the next one. Thanks.



Yes. They just provide a common across the entire set for the I/O side. I don't know that its proper practice, but I thought it would be nicer with field wiring especially since my field wiring is changing as I go.

No really issue with that but if your commons are scattered throughout the enclosure it could make it more difficult to troubleshoot, especially if they are floating or isolated in any way. Troubleshooting a dead sensor back to a common common is easier then trying to measure it from a bunch of individual common groups.
 
in your first pictures, you are not allowing enough room above the power supplies to allow for heat to dissipate.

is also appears that you have a 120 volt and 480 volt primary power supply.
this may violate NFPA79, not sure.

also, you must be careful with wiring colors to separate the two different power supply + / - terminals, you cannot tie them together.

james
 
Whatever works for you but you have to consider you are doubling your margin for error and failure adding any unnecessary connection point to come loose, corrode, potentially short, etc...

I think I may have worded my initial response wrong. I thought this would work nice, and while it did for field wiring, I do not want to do it again. For reasons you mention and the amount of wasted time and space. I would like to find a better way to layout the ziplinks to wire direct with the commons organized so that field wiring isn't so messy(like my first attempt at wiring direct). Do you have any suggestions?

You can read NFPA 79 for free online but you cant print it unless you purchase a copy. In the 2015 edition section 13.2.4 explains wiring colors, this is a widely accepted standard for machine builders in the US. NFPA 79 is the electrical standard for industrial machinery, even though its AG your panel is considered an industrial control panel

I read some of it and believe I followed their color codes? They leave a few open ended IIRC.

No really issue with that but if your commons are scattered throughout the enclosure it could make it more difficult to troubleshoot, especially if they are floating or isolated in any way. Troubleshooting a dead sensor back to a common common is easier then trying to measure it from a bunch of individual common groups.

I was under the impression it was a good idea to fuse each cards common? Each group of commons is simply that cards common. They're all still the same power supply, just fused that way. Is there a better way of doing this?
 
in your first pictures, you are not allowing enough room above the power supplies to allow for heat to dissipate.

is also appears that you have a 120 volt and 480 volt primary power supply.
this may violate NFPA79, not sure.

also, you must be careful with wiring colors to separate the two different power supply + / - terminals, you cannot tie them together.

james

Noted on the PS.

No 480 in this panel, just 120.

I would've liked to have separate colors for the power supplies, but didn't know if it was allowed and/or good practice so I just settled on separating them into groups of TB's. It would make future troubleshooting easier. What colors would you suggest?

Thanks!
 
Very clean work. We have been building panels for 35 years and a couple things i would suggest are:
1. Make life easiest for the installer. Put field terminal as close to the top as possible. Electricians hate crawling on the ground.
2. make field terminals vertical. Reason being when you look at them if their horizontal its easy to get the wrong terminal. But if their vertical its very obvious from top to bottom. Also its is a lot easier to stab a wire down then up or sideways.
3. Always take into account how many field wires are going to end up in the wire way. The fewer bends a field wire has to make the better.

4. Design the panel to fit the installation location taking into account top/side/bottom penetrations. Keeping in mind also if its wash down or meat handling which require slope top boxes.
 

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