Siemens Programming

The_Wanderer

Member
Join Date
May 2003
Location
Waterford, Ireland
Posts
96
We have a project coming up (possibly-- depends on a couple bean counters hidden away in a locked office) where the customer has specified Siemens PLC's. The project is going to include servo or stepper motors, not sure which yet, and discrete I/O only.

Only problem is that nobody here has done any programming on Siemens before (plenty of Mitsubishi and AB experience, some Telemechanique). To get around this, the boss is trying to decide on how to get the machine programmed in the cheapest/ quickest/ cheapest/ easiest/ cheapest/ most efficient way.
As I see it, there are 3 choices:
1: Subcontract out the programming. Don't really like this option, as then we have less control, less knowledge of the program, less troubleshooting ability. And the cost of course.
2: Get in a subcontractor we know who is getting out of the business but who is willing to show us a few things (for a price). Pump him for as much info as possible, then try to muddle our way through and teach ourselves how to communicate, program, and debug on new software. I have had enough trouble doing this before to be glad that it would not be me doing it.
3: Send one of our guys on a week long training course. Cost is a big issue here, as is the fact that I'm not sure a basics course would be sufficient.

Oh, and by the way, everything has to be on the AS-i system. Which we have never used before. No problem, right? I have been told that AS-i is no great shakes, but that was a salesman speaking, and I tend to disregard everything salesmen say...

I guess I am just looking for any comments on how others would approach this. How is Siemens for programming if you know other programming languages? I have heard that it is quite different, but am not sure how.
 
I feel for ya

From my point of view and the info you have given us on your bosses priority list, you would probably best to go outside for the actual programming.

I do most of my work using other PLCs besides Siemens and really like it that way. Siemens definitely does it differently.

Now before anyone decides to flame me on this, I agree that Siemens has a very thorough and well constructed system. I know it is one of the best out there. I just find it cumbersome because I so rarely use it that I find Siemens' techniques to be counter-intuitive when looking at it through my particular set of goggles. Sometimes it feels like they make you run around the house three times to come in the front door.

It sounds like you are doing a one-off machine. If that is true, finding an outsider who can and will program based around your current logic would certainly be cheaper..excuse me, more cost effective, than trying to go through the learning curve. This is especially true if you are going to use their servo module.

On the other hand, if your company can easily see doing more Siemens projects down the road, bite the bullet and do it in-house.

Don't know a thing about AS-i.

Just try to remember that this is only my humble opinion.

Steve
 
Hello Wanderer;

Most PLCs on the market use a single, long program file (with interrupts or sub-routines to allow for complexity) where all the control steps are sequential. Basically the same file is read at each scan.
In Siemens's programming world, all machine functions are programmed in different, separate function blocs. A spoecial block (OB1) serves the same purpose a a C program's main() function: it conditionnally calls the seperate function blocks (while allowing the parametrization of the same blocks) to execute the sequence of operations reuqired. Since each machine function is programmed seperately (motor control, for example), you can call the same block many times (for different motors to be controlled by the same function)or not at all in this scan, if the conditions are not right.
This makes for a different learning curve to approach the S7 PLCs.
As far as the solution to your problem, I would look at a combination of training and external help, in order to acquire more experience than just a training course . If the retiring engineer you are thoinking about can give you a solid theoretical background on top of his practical expertise, it might be the best answer to your situation.
Hope this helps,
Daniel Chartier
 
I think that your best approach to this would be to sub-contract out the programing side, with perhaps one of your guys tagging along to learn. Siemens basic course covers the set up etc and most basic programing but it does not cover using ASi.

The learning curve on this might be a bit too steep to take this on by yourselves, but I would get involved with the programing as much as possible.

Paul
 
Go for it,Take it on board yerselves

I did there is loads of siemens support 24/7 and worst case ye can come back here for support!!!!!!!!

It's not that difficult to learn once you understand where they are coming from!!!!!!!!
 
What happend to IEC 1131? Wasnt this standard defined to allow users to utilize many different systems without fear of having to relearn new languages from respective suppliers?
 
My shop has contracted out programming on a few occasions for Bristol Babcock. This is where BB was specified but we didn't have experience with it. What we did was first write a thorough operational description so that everything was defined in human language terms. Then most importantly, we included in our contract with the sub, an on-site factory acceptance test. We also included in our contract some hours for training. Not PLC training but operator training. Another clause in our contract was that they would be paid in full upon satisfactory performance and a turned in copy of the program (PLC and OIT if applicable) WITH SYNONYMS on disk.
You should buy a licenced copy of the programming software anyway.
 
Rookie_Engineer said:
What happend to IEC 1131? Wasnt this standard defined to allow users to utilize many different systems without fear of having to relearn new languages from respective suppliers?

Another dream that will never be realized. We've used Siemens and Modicon (Telemechanique) versions of IEC 1131 software, and they were just as different from each other as RSLogix is from DirectSoft.

Our first Siemens project, done from a cold start and very little tech suport, was a major pain. Steve's comment about Siemens doing things differently was dead on. We will only use them again if the customer forces us.

However, I suspect that if we had time available for training, the learning curve would have gone from very-bad-terrible-horrible to merely awful. The addressing and program structure and data organization are the hardest to get used to, and a basic training course should get you over these humps. You can probably get some "after school" help with the finer points of your application, plus you will probably make some tech support contacts that you can use (Finding the right tech support guy was, for us, a major project in itself.) I'd say bite the bullet and go for it in house - you will need to be able to troubleshoot and modify later on anyway.
 
PLucas said:
I think that your best approach to this would be to sub-contract out the programing side

The learning curve on this might be a bit too steep to take this on by yourselves,

That what I originally wrote, but after reading Mylo's and Tom's replies I have changed my mind (hey, I am allowed to do that!).

Wanderer go for it! Apart from being able to call on Siemens tech support there are a few of us who frequent this site who know a bit about S7's, such as Jean Pierre, Daniel, JRW and Me of course :D (excuse my EGO there).

Paul
 
Merely my opinion

I say do it in house, yeah it may cost you more but when the customer comes to you with a problem you have to fix it. Plus knowing another brand cannot hurt your business, it might even help you in the future. If I were you, I would push to be the one to get the training as well, just another thing to add to your resume right?

As for the ASI, it not that hard to use, but like everything there is a learning curve. I have installed an ASI system and am going to do another one soon. The second one will probably take me half as long as the first because I learned all the problems your likely to run into doing the first one. Figuring out how to do the first one wasn't that bad, mostly it was trial and error.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys!

Leaning towards doin it all in house, as this gives us the opportunity to change & modify & debug without toooooo much hassle. This would be a new customer as well, and there is the possibilty of a lot more work from them if we impress on this one.
Unfortunately it most likely won't be me getting the training-- with 3 programming languages under my belt, my brain is full! Also I need some of my underlings to take more work off my shoulders (the benefits of being "Supervisor"-- all the work comes my way!).

As for the steep learning curve, that doesn't really bother me. Dealt with it before and survived. Barely. The Siemens guys are hungry to sell us their software and everything, so we might force them to give a little extra help out to make the sale.

As for the AS-i, from what I gather, there is a control module that has its own configuration software, and once that is set up, it is dumped into the PLC as I/O, with nothing that special about it. Just another bump on the learning curve...

Mylo, we are based in Finglas, so I might be asking for your help if things go haywire. I have this feeling though that we might be competitors. The boss might not like that...

As an added benefit, we just refurbished a machine where we had to rip out a perfectly fine control cabinet, because everything in it was the wrong brand. Happened to have a small S7-200 in it, which is now ours to use as we please, so we have something to practise with...

Now, if we could just get that Purchase Order...
 
The_Wanderer said:
Happened to have a small S7-200 in it, which is now ours to use as we please, so we have something to practise with...


Careful there Wanderer, S7 200's are not like programing 300's and 400's. Also you will need a PPI lead to program a 200 up. This topic has been covered in this forum before, do a search and you should uncover some info on the subject.

The ASi control module should have LED's on the side that will tell you what ASi slave has gone pear shaped, or you can read fault codes into the PLC, I have done a little with ASi (only on a training course) so I might be able to help you out on this if you need it.

Paul
 
To the Wanderer,

I'm in Finglas too and since when did Finglas become Co.Meath, (thats got the rest of the Guys confused)

anyhew an S7-200 will not give you very much training on Step7 software as unfortuntyly it uses a lower language, more akin of Linear programming.

Looky here now, if we are competitors I doubt its a hassle for my point of view as if you are who I now suspect you are we only clashed once , and our services are not the same as yours and visa versa. So i really have no problem with helping ye out cause someday we might need your help. its too small a world for that S~#t !!!((As this website shows!!!!!!!!!!))))))))

So go on who are ye??

Best I can offer is drop around to me, today if possible, I'll show ye the software, and a little crash course in it and how I coped when I started with siemens. Its not a problem !!!!!!!!! then you can accuratly assess the task yer facing
 
Awright Mylo,

I'm living in Meath, working in Finglas. Only have to be in da big schmoke for the working day...

I'm in Allied Automation in Jamestown Business Park.
Give me a call 864-5714, maybe we can talk. Name's Jeff. Today is good for me too.
 
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