OT - Compensation above Salary

DBLD99

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Join Date
Oct 2003
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USA
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This is a little OT but I believe this is the best place to ask this question. I have been in system integration for over 16 years, I spent 10 years with one integrator and 6 with my current integrator. Over the past 6 years, my previous clients have come to me to give them help with stuff I worked on personally with them at my last company and also doing new projects with them. I am the only one at my current company doing these projects and it seems like I am always squeezing them in between the projects I was hired to do here. I have asked numerous times about doing some type of bonus or profit sharing with my bosses but they always have pushed it off and have never come through with a plan. At the current moment, it is approaching 150k in labor they have billed for my time. With materials, I am well over 375k of total project work that I have brought here. So by no means enough to go out on my own for.

I know they give me a steady job and they provide me with benefits as well and I know not all of the 150k in labor is "profit" but the majority of it is or at least has helped pay my salary over the last 6 years. We are all here because we enjoy what we do, but also don't want to get taken advantage of. If there is something I can get extra out of it to help get my kids through college etc... I want that money, this is a business in the end.

So is it being greedy to force them to start profit sharing or giving me a percentage of the work I have brought? If so what would a good percentage be that would be reasonable starting place? I plan to stay here long term, no reason to leave, but I may not want to continue helping my clients as it does hamper getting the workload they already have for me done.
 
May I suggest the following.
Rather than squeezing them in, schedule their work into your plans.
that way, you are never rushed and its less stress on you.
explain to the customer what's going on, you just cannot squeeze them in.
if you don't, you will work so hard that you end up broke down and getting sick. you may never recover from that.

take it from someone who pushed himself to far one year and got sick, that was in '92 and I still cannot push myself like that without having to pay for it for 2 weeks.

my boss didn't care, just get the job done and move on to the next.

in regards to your last question, as you said, you have a job and benefits where you are now. Your boss more than likely will not take ultimatums well.
approach the boss professionally and with respect with what ever decision you make. if they won't do profit sharing try getting a raise. Try not to burn that bridge. Maybe go looking for another integrator.

I am not in your shoes, but I did get broke down and sick working to much overtime. Good luck with what ever you decide.

james
 
I worked direct, OEM, and spent a brief time with an integrator. It's norm for integrator to pay for overtime. They way they explained it, if they billed for you time, then it's only fair that you get paid for it. It was straight time, not one and half but it's reasonable.

If you are not getting paid for the time you worked for billable hour, then I would say move on or start to turn away work.

One thing though, it's your job to inform your boss how loaded you are, even though they do bill on your time, don't assume they are aware of it.
 
Thanks for the replies so far. Obviously the customers that have "followed" me do wait for my time to free up and they are willing to do that to have myself do their work. So the are understanding in that sense.

I guess my point is I brought this work to this company and they are reaping the benefits of my labor. They would never have had these clients without me. It would be different if they were providing labor from other co-workers inside this company to help me with the projects but I am still doing them on my own as I did previously at my last company. I have been doing work for these clients for almost 16 years.

I am salaried so I don't get overtime pay. In the 6 years with this company I have received 2 bonuses (not related to this work). Actually have never even had a simple Thank You for bringing this work either. I would say my current salary is average from what I see out in the job market now.

So I just don't think it is out of line to ask for 20-30% of the profit after all the bills are paid etc.... for this work only. Obviously wouldn't be asking that for the projects the company finds.
 
Thanks for the replies so far. Obviously the customers that have "followed" me do wait for my time to free up and they are willing to do that to have myself do their work. So the are understanding in that sense.

I guess my point is I brought this work to this company and they are reaping the benefits of my labor. They would never have had these clients without me. It would be different if they were providing labor from other co-workers inside this company to help me with the projects but I am still doing them on my own as I did previously at my last company. I have been doing work for these clients for almost 16 years.

I am salaried so I don't get overtime pay. In the 6 years with this company I have received 2 bonuses (not related to this work). Actually have never even had a simple Thank You for bringing this work either. I would say my current salary is average from what I see out in the job market now.

So I just don't think it is out of line to ask for 20-30% of the profit after all the bills are paid etc.... for this work only. Obviously wouldn't be asking that for the projects the company finds.

Reaping the benefits of your labor is the reason they are the employer and you're the employee.

I assume that if you had not brought in these jobs they would just have you work on something else? In that case, how is the jobs you have brought in making them any more money? It's not.

Only time it would bring in extra money for them is if you had nothing to do, or they could charge your "clients" a higher rate.
If you want more of the profit you have to go out on your own. More money, higher risks. Less money, more safety.

That said, you could always negotiate a raise, pointing to these new clients as well any overtime you work. But 20-30% of any profits is not realistic.
 
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Similar situations persuaded me to venture out on my own. I'd be lying if I said I don't miss being an employee sometimes but having control on what to work on is worth it.
 
Reaping the benefits of your labor is the reason they are the employer and you're the employee.

I assume that if you had not brought in these jobs they would just have you work on something else? In that case, how is the jobs you have brought in making them any more money? It's not.

Only time it would bring in extra money for them is if you had nothing to do, or they could charge your "clients" a higher rate.
If you want more of the profit you have to go out on your own. More money, higher risks. Less money, more safety.

That said, you could always negotiate a raise, pointing to these new clients as well any overtime you work. But 20-30% of any profits is not realistic.

Thanks for the input - This is the input I was looking for. What you have said makes total sense, I guess my argument would be, If I am working on ProjectA - then leave for a week or two to help MyClientA then when I return I am working 55-60 hours a week to get caught up on ProjectA before commissioning. So in my eyes if I did not do my clients work I would be working on a project that was assigned anyway, Where I now have to put in OT to get it done. Plus I usually have 3-5 projects going at a time plus the 5 clients I have been supporting.

So from what you are saying I should be leaning more towards letting my clients go and just concentrate on the work my employer provides.
 
Thanks for the input - This is the input I was looking for. What you have said makes total sense, I guess my argument would be, If I am working on ProjectA - then leave for a week or two to help MyClientA then when I return I am working 55-60 hours a week to get caught up on ProjectA before commissioning. So in my eyes if I did not do my clients work I would be working on a project that was assigned anyway, Where I now have to put in OT to get it done. Plus I usually have 3-5 projects going at a time plus the 5 clients I have been supporting.

So from what you are saying I should be leaning more towards letting my clients go and just concentrate on the work my employer provides.

I think that you'd be best served by simply arguing for a straightforward increase in salary.
 
get paid for your OT or don't do any... what's the point? Doesn't sound like a great company to work for. You might be able to take some of their clients with you when you go out on your own.
 
...I guess my argument would be, If I am working on ProjectA - then leave for a week or two to help MyClientA then when I return I am working 55-60 hours a week to get caught up on ProjectA before commissioning. So in my eyes if I did not do my clients work I would be working on a project that was assigned anyway, Where I now have to put in OT to get it done.

In my eyes, if the client isn't cutting you a check, they aren't YOUR clients. It's great that you have relationships that want to keep you part of their team but if you are working OT to accommodate them, you are working for FREE by CHOICE.

Don't get me wrong, I was the "good guy" just wanted to get things done and do what I felt my job was. Thankfully I got used and abused early on and learned my lesson. Do the job that I am paid to do, go over and beyond when it's actually needed (sometimes things just have to get done) and put my foot down when management clearly starts taking my generosity for granted. I'm happy to be an employee and not having to worry about about billing/liability insurance/medical insurance/getting paid and finding project work.

Perhaps you could try to do that work "side work", however I'm sure now it's a conflict-of-interest and questionable ethics-wise. Of course if you were able to do that you'll be paying for your own software licensing, computer, self-employment taxes and of course all that insurance.

Perhaps work for a new company, in a new industry then start doing side work, I've done this for a few former clients were there was not a conflict-of-interest but even then the added costs of doing extra work weren't always worth the time I lost.
 
I don't know the specifics of your situation, but working without being paid is not my idea of a nice place to work (so much so that I just quit the place I worked at because of this).

Would there be a possibility of you having a flexible schedule at your current workplace and accomodate the clients you brought in as your own clients by opening up a company? I understand that it would be a competing business and your contract probably has a clause that you cannot do outside work, but have you explored this avenue?
I am assuming obviously, that the clients you brought in are not in travelling distance for you to put in a few hours after work.

How about asking for overtime to be paid?

With regards of the profit sharing, I think that it's a really sticky situation to approach the employer (especially one that doesn't pay OT when it's obvious you're doing them).
 
Now that you have said Salary,

Let's approach this differently.
I'm going to ask some questions and i'm not going to say why right now.

are you fast at your job?
do you stay within the time allotted to get the job done?
are you having to change your programming (rewrite) to get the machinery to work?

Questions all asked to me when I was on salary years ago.

It could be that your boss has been quoting jobs for your time and did not plan on it taking so long, that was my case. he thought I was to slow.

get with the boss when planning a job and start estimating your time, the boss may use another number, but at least you are now working together so he can see what's going on.

james
 
I don't know the specifics of your situation, but working without being paid is not my idea of a nice place to work (so much so that I just quit the place I worked at because of this).

Would there be a possibility of you having a flexible schedule at your current workplace and accomodate the clients you brought in as your own clients by opening up a company? I understand that it would be a competing business and your contract probably has a clause that you cannot do outside work, but have you explored this avenue?
I am assuming obviously, that the clients you brought in are not in travelling distance for you to put in a few hours after work.

How about asking for overtime to be paid?

With regards of the profit sharing, I think that it's a really sticky situation to approach the employer (especially one that doesn't pay OT when it's obvious you're doing them).

Yeah I for sure explored doing it as side work. It isn't feasible because it is more than a 3 hour drive to 3 of them and 4-6 hours for the others. The equipment I control is quite expensive too, so don't want to take it on without some type of insurance as well. I do most of the updates remotely though - though they usually want this done 7-4 during their work hours.

For OT - It is clearly stated in our employee handbook that OT is paid on project to project basis as deemed over and beyond the normal duties of work. I have never received OT in the 6 years I have been here. Only have received a few comp days here and there.
 
Now that you have said Salary,

Let's approach this differently.
I'm going to ask some questions and i'm not going to say why right now.

are you fast at your job?
do you stay within the time allotted to get the job done?
are you having to change your programming (rewrite) to get the machinery to work?

Questions all asked to me when I was on salary years ago.

It could be that your boss has been quoting jobs for your time and did not plan on it taking so long, that was my case. he thought I was to slow.

get with the boss when planning a job and start estimating your time, the boss may use another number, but at least you are now working together so he can see what's going on.

james

Yeah I have taken on a "senior" leadership role here. Besides doing all aspects of most projects that come through, I help quote every project that comes through now as well. Only feedback on my quotes is early on I would quote the hours as if I was doing it, so needed to change it up and quote it like one of the other guys would do it. So that tells me I work faster and more efficient, which I should be faster than a guy with less than 5 years exp. I have taken on and re-did all the programming standards since I have been here because they were not well written when I got here. Plus I have to help train the other employees as not one has over 5 years experience. So yeah I am very fast at what I do - you get that way after doing the same things for this long.

No, its great to say that I don't have to rewrite any of the code I have standardized on here. In fact some of our current projects is Re-Writing all the code from 10 years ago with my new standard because most of the support calls are for those programs done before my time here.
 
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I would also just look to be compensated for your time... being on the other side (own my business now) giving an employee any % of the profit is not going to happen, if I were your boss and you came to me asking that I would say where were you when we lost money for the first 4 years, if you want a percentage of the profits then you need to 'buy in' as a owner

My last hourly job... one of my greatest accomplishments was saving them 15k per month on gas consumption and another 10k on electrical, I did want a raise at the end of the year but that was my job, to save them money because I could and also to ask for a raise to better my life for my family

I think you brought them work and that is great, they should pay you a very good wage but not a percentage of the profit, if they had a bad month would you pay them money back? a one bonus once a year or review once a year is fair, but they owe you a paycheck nothing more and nothing less

I would definitely push back on the overtime, they are (or should be) charging a higher rate from the end customer if you are working more than 40hrs a week and you should also be paid more than your normal rate
 
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