PLC Wireless Network (Suggestions)

Rigel · May 30, 2018

Looking for some help.

I posted this on the Ubiquiti forum:

Just joined the community, please be patient with me as I have, being kind with myself, very little experience.

I want to setup a wireless network to connect twelve PLCs using Modbus TCP/IP. I haven't nailed down the exact controller that will be used, at the moment I'm down to either an Automation Direct Productivity 2000 or IDEC FC6A.

I have seen a few posts here and on other forums that mention Nanostaion Loco M5. I'm a bit concerned as these show up under legacy in the products page. So my first questions are:

Are the Nanostaion Loco M5 currently in production or will they be phased out?

What would be the current model to consider?

I realize my application might be a bit vague so will gladly answer questions.

Here at PLCs.net is where I first read about Ubiquiti products and their use with PLCs. Would appreciate any help.

A bit more info. on my application.
Distance from PLC to PLC would be about 5 meters, they will all be placed in line with each other.
Information would mainly go to a single PLC but want the flexibility for this main (master?) unit to send out periodical data to the other units.

I'm also considering the Banner DX80ER9M Ethernet Radio. Although this would be more costly.

I welcome your suggestions, thoughts, etc.

gclshortt · May 30, 2018

I have used the Ubiquity Nanostation M in a bridge setup to pass between two buildings about 100 meters apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxJPBukjbY

The above is a video that helped me out.
Regards,

Rigel · May 30, 2018

Thank you for the video link Garry.
Just finished watching it, very informative.

What PLCs and protocol are you using in your application?

Regards

gclshortt · May 30, 2018

We used an automation direct BRX to communicate to a Click PLC using Modbus TCP.
There was an existing network in the one building and we extended this to the other building using the Nanostation M and another modem.

Regards,

Rigel · May 30, 2018

Thanks for the extra info Garry.

BTW I have recently watched a few of your videos on YouTube, thanks for those also.

Regards.

damica1 · May 30, 2018

Maybe I'm not understanding!

12 Plc's in line with each other and each plc will be 5 meters apart.

Why would you want this to be a wireless network?

Rigel · May 30, 2018

There are walkways between each machine/controller with regular traffic, personnel & material. There is no sealing to conceal any cables.
So since I can't go through, above nor below that leaves me wireless. Actually we could go above but that would mean running a lot of conduit and impacting the aesthetics of the place.

mk42 · May 30, 2018

Rigel said:
Actually we could go above but that would mean running a lot of conduit and impacting the aesthetics of the place.

Just run the over head conduit. You'll save yourself a world of hassle.

thingstodo · May 30, 2018

Rigel said:
Looking for some help.
...
I'm also considering the Banner DX80ER9M Ethernet Radio. Although this would be more costly.

I have had poor support from Banner on their radios. We still use their switches and stuff. The sales guy was just as frustrated as we were with their lack of interest in our problems. We removed their system and tossed it in the garbage, after struggling to figure out what was wrong for about 7 years. The system it was a part of still does not run the way it should, since it was designed to use wireless. And we are using a cable track system instead.

Whoever you buy the radios from, talk to them first and ask who does their support, where they are based out of, and how many systems they have in your area. It does not hurt to ask if you can visit some of the sites that are using their equipment.

I wish I had.

As for why you want to use wireless at all, that part is up to you. For reliability, we hard wire everything that we can. But that may just be us 'old guys' not wanting to change.

damica1 · May 31, 2018

mk42 said:
Just run the over head conduit. You'll save yourself a world of hassle.

This is TRUE.

You will have to take into consideration what will happen when 1 or more plc's lose communication between the others.

If you do go with wireless I would keep then on a "Non-Overlapping" channel.

Selecting the proper WiFi channel can significantly improve your WiFi coverage and performance. In the 2.4 GHz band, 1, 6, and 11 are the only non-overlapping channels. Selecting one or more of these channels is an important part of setting up your network correctly.

Rigel · May 31, 2018

thingstodo said:
I have had poor support from Banner on their radios. We still use their switches and stuff. The sales guy was just as frustrated as we were with their lack of interest in our problems. We removed their system and tossed it in the garbage, after struggling to figure out what was wrong for about 7 years. The system it was a part of still does not run the way it should, since it was designed to use wireless. And we are using a cable track system instead.

Whoever you buy the radios from, talk to them first and ask who does their support, where they are based out of, and how many systems they have in your area. It does not hurt to ask if you can visit some of the sites that are using their equipment.

I wish I had.

As for why you want to use wireless at all, that part is up to you. For reliability, we hard wire everything that we can. But that may just be us 'old guys' not wanting to change.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll have a word with our supplier to see if they can show me an actual application of the radios. I've dealt with them for some years now and have had very good support with Banner products, hope this continues if we decide to use their radios.

Regarding wireless and "'old guys' not wanting to change" sometimes I feel like I want to use wireless just to feel more up to date with current technologies.

Rigel · May 31, 2018

gclshortt said:
We used an automation direct BRX to communicate to a Click PLC using Modbus TCP.
There was an existing network in the one building and we extended this to the other building using the Nanostation M and another modem.

Regards,

Garry,

How is your setup?

PLC > (?) > Nanostation - ))) ((( - Nanostation < (?) < PLC

Interested in what is between the PLC and the Nanostations.

OkiePC · May 31, 2018

The tricky thing about using Nanostations with PLCs is a different world of terminology. Most of the examples you will find are how to get internet access to a POE powered security camera or something along those lines. We have used them in some places as a "wire replacement" for ethernet networking of PLCs and they are really very good and much much cheaper than even very short cable runs. I always get confused by the terms "station" "access point" "AP repeater", etc. I would not hesitate to use them for what you describe, but it might take me half a day to get them all set up and talking...but that is a one time investment of time.

Where we have used them we have given them a separate network scheme from the PLC network. We have the LAN port on the Ubiquiti POE injector connected to a small unmanaged switch or directly to the PLC port. I prefer to use a switch to give me a place to plug in the laptop if I need to access either device during setup. If done right, once they're all commissioned, you will be able to access the PLCs wirelessly, so you will want to apply security to ensure unwanted access is inhibited.

Rigel · May 31, 2018

OkiePC said:
The tricky thing about using Nanostations with PLCs is a different world of terminology. Most of the examples you will find are how to get internet access to a POE powered security camera or something along those lines. We have used them in some places as a "wire replacement" for ethernet networking of PLCs and they are really very good and much much cheaper than even very short cable runs. I always get confused by the terms "station" "access point" "AP repeater", etc. I would not hesitate to use them for what you describe, but it might take me half a day to get them all set up and talking...but that is a one time investment of time.

Where we have used them we have given them a separate network scheme from the PLC network. We have the LAN port on the Ubiquiti POE injector connected to a small unmanaged switch or directly to the PLC port. I prefer to use a switch to give me a place to plug in the laptop if I need to access either device during setup. If done right, once they're all commissioned, you will be able to access the PLCs wirelessly, so you will want to apply security to ensure unwanted access is inhibited.

The terminology does represent a challenge. I've been googling terms every time I look into this!

Appreciate your reply.

Rigel · May 31, 2018

OkiePC said:
much much cheaper than even very short cable runs.

This is very true.
Here, the cost of a cable run is higher than a Nanostation.

Also, I'm taking into account physical flexibility, even though our plant is new we have already moved quite a few machines around. When doing so, we have to rerun cables.

PLC Wireless Network (Suggestions)

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