Obsolete vfd upgrade (devicenet)

Hello Board!

I'm developing a project to provide a solution for some of our obsolete VFD's that we currently are using in our production process equipment. These line control systems are pretty old and we're working on upgrading, but this takes time. In the interim we have SLC 500 controls systems with Devicenet networks, (and DH+ for the panelview and graceport and scanner card...

We have a bunch of these lines and we are in a situation in which Rockwell is no longer supporting some of our VFD's (old Reliance stuff)...

I have already specified and ordered (and received) new Powerflex 520 series (525) drives to replace these. (one at a time as needed due to failures) We are not trying to replace all of our (120 drives) at once; I'm going to replace one to start with so I can learn and know how to do it and teach others...

My questions pertain to the installation, setup, commissioning of these new drives into our old network.

Is there any advice as I begin to plan for this?

I have some experience with Devicenet...

I am looking to develop a step by step procedure for our specific situation so others in our maintenance teams can complete this upgrade as needed...

Powerflex 525s are tricky because there is a boatload of parameters.
Definitely only do 1 to start.

GTUnit said:

Powerflex 525s are tricky because there is a boatload of parameters.
Definitely only do 1 to start.

Click to expand...

Read this:

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ap/pflex-ap011_-en-p.pdf

You will need to change your PLC program as well.
Among other things the Speed reference to a 525 is 4 characters long instead of 3 as in a PF40.

so you need to send a speed reference command of 6000 instead of 600 to a 525 for it to run at 60hz.

Thanks so much for the advice so far...

I'll work on that...

Thanks,

If I'm going to all this trouble I would also eliminate devicenet. Go to ethernet control on the 525's. Much easier to program, control, troubleshoot, install, expand, etc.

We are upgrading entire control systems, but it will take time...

We are going to Ethernet on the whole system upgrades...

This inquiry pertains to maintaining our current systems in the interim...

Thanks,

GTUnit said:

Read this:

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/ap/pflex-ap011_-en-p.pdf

You will need to change your PLC program as well.
Among other things the Speed reference to a 525 is 4 characters long instead of 3 as in a PF40.

so you need to send a speed reference command of 6000 instead of 600 to a 525 for it to run at 60hz.

Click to expand...

The PF40 is the same as the Reliance P600's?

The PF40 is the same as the Reliance P600's?

Click to expand...

There are some platform similarities between some Reliance Electric and some Allen-Bradley AC drives that are evident just by looking at their frames and buttons.

The PowerFlex 4 is a relative of the Reliance MD60, and the PowerFlex 40 is a relative of the Reliance MD65. The PowerFlex 70 is a relative of the Reliance P600.

But that doesn't make them "the same"; the components and functionality are similar but they're sold and supported and applied differently.

What I think that GTUnit was emphasizing is that the integer speed units for a PowerFlex 520 series drive are 0.01 Hz, while the integer speed units for a PowerFlex 40 were 0.1 Hz.

Therefore the output frequency reference value to get an output of 60.00 Hz on a PowerFlex 40 would be "600", while the reference value to get the same output on a PowerFlex 525 would be "6000".

It's actually a good route, because you will use a comm card to make the 525 talk to Devicenet, but with the Ethernet /IP being native to it, a future upgrade involves simply removing those comm cards and plugging your future Ethernet cables into the onboard connector (unless you need to implement DLR, which is a longer discussion).

The main issue, as mentioned, is the higher level of integer accuracy. My suggestion is to also make sure you download and print out every individual Reliance drive parameter set, assume nothing. Then look at not only the parameters that were changed from the factory default, but also all of the factory defaults as well. There may be some hidden "gotchas" in that as well.

OP, I see a number of things you probably should have "in-place" to make swaps easier, especially if people are doing them when they fail.

1 - Logic in place to handle the resolution changes, probably a button on an HMI to toggle logic in the PLC if it is a PF40 or PF525

2 - Drive configuration files, you can probably create those in CCW ahead of time and ready to download to a new drive when needed.

3 - DeviceNet, this one is tricky. IF you have enough open addressing you could configure the DeviceNet network ahead of time by placing the new drives on the network as new nodes, however missing nodes on the network (future PF525 drives) might not be ideal. But you could set everything up, node address/PLC mapping addresses and they wouldn't have to touch the network. #1 evolves quite a due to the PF40/PF525 node addresses being different. But if you aren't afraid of updating DNet when you replace the drive you could forego this one.

Procedure:
1 - Replace drive, set pre-determined Dnet node address
2 - Download CCW config file to the drive.
3 - Toggle the logic to the "PF525" logic vs "PF40" logic
4 - Clean up the logic/DNet files as you go.

Just to clarify, there is no PF40, that was a red herring. He has Reliance drives now.

Ken Roach said:

There are some platform similarities between some Reliance Electric and some Allen-Bradley AC drives that are evident just by looking at their frames and buttons.

The PowerFlex 4 is a relative of the Reliance MD60, and the PowerFlex 40 is a relative of the Reliance MD65. The PowerFlex 70 is a relative of the Reliance P600.

But that doesn't make them "the same"; the components and functionality are similar but they're sold and supported and applied differently.

What I think that GTUnit was emphasizing is that the integer speed units for a PowerFlex 520 series drive are 0.01 Hz, while the integer speed units for a PowerFlex 40 were 0.1 Hz.

Therefore the output frequency reference value to get an output of 60.00 Hz on a PowerFlex 40 would be "600", while the reference value to get the same output on a PowerFlex 525 would be "6000".

Click to expand...

Thanks...

jraef said:

It's actually a good route, because you will use a comm card to make the 525 talk to Devicenet, but with the Ethernet /IP being native to it, a future upgrade involves simply removing those comm cards and plugging your future Ethernet cables into the onboard connector (unless you need to implement DLR, which is a longer discussion).

The main issue, as mentioned, is the higher level of integer accuracy. My suggestion is to also make sure you download and print out every individual Reliance drive parameter set, assume nothing. Then look at not only the parameters that were changed from the factory default, but also all of the factory defaults as well. There may be some hidden "gotchas" in that as well.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the plan; we are going to upgrade control systems, but it will be a gradual process over several years. This allows us to be ready and efficient.

Thanks,

Paully's5.0 said:

OP, I see a number of things you probably should have "in-place" to make swaps easier, especially if people are doing them when they fail.

1 - Logic in place to handle the resolution changes, probably a button on an HMI to toggle logic in the PLC if it is a PF40 or PF525

2 - Drive configuration files, you can probably create those in CCW ahead of time and ready to download to a new drive when needed.

3 - DeviceNet, this one is tricky. IF you have enough open addressing you could configure the DeviceNet network ahead of time by placing the new drives on the network as new nodes, however missing nodes on the network (future PF525 drives) might not be ideal. But you could set everything up, node address/PLC mapping addresses and they wouldn't have to touch the network. #1 evolves quite a due to the PF40/PF525 node addresses being different. But if you aren't afraid of updating DNet when you replace the drive you could forego this one.

Procedure:
1 - Replace drive, set pre-determined Dnet node address
2 - Download CCW config file to the drive.
3 - Toggle the logic to the "PF525" logic vs "PF40" logic
4 - Clean up the logic/DNet files as you go.

Click to expand...

Thanks! This is the kind of path I want to take with this...

I'm going to be working on it soon...

I'll keep everyone posted...

Thanks again...

Update w/ Questions

Board,

Okay, I've come a great deal farther with this project.

One point of concern for me is knowing what every drive parameter does. Is there supposed to be a directory for drive parameters? I would expect a chart with every parameter explanation or definition. Any such thing?

The drives I'm working with are Allen Bradley 1336 Plus, Reliance SP600, Powerflex 525...

I'm installing Powerflex 525 drives in place of the other two drives...

I've got the mapping figured out (in theory and practice with an offline test system I've got put together on my desk)

I made an excel spreadsheet with the parameters from a Reliance SP600 on one side and the new Powerflex 525 on the other...

I went through and (laboriously) used the FIND function for every single parameter in the 525 and found those matching between the SP600 and the 525. There were 59 (or maybe 60) parameters that were found in both the SP600 and the 525.

The problem I have is that the 525 has like 487 parameters! That leaves quite a few that I can't just compare and match with the SP600...

How does a professional handle this type of problem?

Are there any resources that I may not know about for defining parameters?

Any help would be very appreciated!

Thanks,

John Whited