Hour Meter with PLC Interface

BudWright

Member
Join Date
Nov 2003
Posts
2
Does anybody know of a hour meter that can be interfaced to a PLC. I want to be able to accumulate machine run time in a hour meter remote device and read total hours into a PLC, ie BCD I/O. I have a software version, but for Part 11 issues would like a remote device to totalize the time and the PLC handshake with it.
Any info would be greatly appreciated!
Bud Wright
 
I would approach it from the other direction. Instead of reading total hours FROM the hour meter TO the PLC, send the total hours value FROM the PLC TO the hour meter.

This makes the Hour Meter a simple display terminal conveniently labeled HOUR METER... :p

beerchug

-Eric
 
Eric:

Normally what you propose would be the right approach, but he's worried about Part 11 (21 CFR, that is) complience.

The FDA wants all kinds of testing ("Validation") done on any gizmo that creates an eletronic record, to prove that the data can't have been tampered with. They are less strict with paper documents (like a chart recorder) - you can usually tell by visual inspection if a paper record has been alterred.

So rather than have to prove that the hour-meter is displaying the correct value from the PLC, Bud wants to have the meter be the source, and the PLC to be the destination.

Pretty clever, actually. Unfortunately, I don't know of such a beast.
 
The very fact that the Hour-Meter Data makes its' way, one way or another, into a PLC, means that the data is subject to tampering.

It is the "being in a PLC" that makes it subject to tampering.

The only thing I can think of is a "Black-Box" sort of thing. Just a simple, straight-forward, no "operator/programmer interface" kind of thing. Just a simple data-player/recorder. Kinda like an "8-Track Tape". Anybody remember those?

Install an "8-Track Tape" type recorder with a particular time frame before over-write. Then, before over-write occurs, have a "certified" reader-PERSON down-load the data.
 
Terry Woods said:
Kinda like an "8-Track Tape". Anybody remember those?
All too well... :(

Though no longer in stores, you could still purchase 8-Tracks well into the 80's from TV ads like K-Tel Records, etc... :rolleyes:

Back in the early 80's, the company I worked for...<CLICK>...molded the rubber 'pinch rollers', and also the plas...<CLICK>...tic housing halves. We also has a huge assembly machine that assembled everything. It ran...<CLICK>...about as well as an 8-Track. IOW, it was a piece of junk.

beerchug

-Eric

P.S. to Allen. Now I understand, but I still think it's silly... :D

Leave it to the government to require installation of an item that doesn't exist... :p
 
Alan:

You 100% correct, that would be 1 less thing to worry about. Searching the net yesterday I found a company that builds clocks that have a BCD output for the time of day, but a hour meter no.

We are building an automatic PM program that will automatically submit maintenance records based on machine run time. The only thing I would need the PLC for is Register/Tag assignment for the IO Server. Being that tag is only a temporary holder for the TotHours, InSQL will collect this data, which we have validated.

Another approach would be to use ethernet, the Hour Meter would have to have a IO Server compatible with InSQL/AB/etc.

Thanks to all who replied.
Bud
 
If the data is in a database somewhere... that data can be manipulated. If the PLC has access, or if the database is in a file on the network... that data is suspect. The situation calls for a "Black Box".

Or, better yet, "A Roach Motel". "The roach (data) can check-in... but it can't check-out." You wouldn't want to put your fingers in a Roach Motel... would you? Only qualified and certified (certifiable?) "Roach-Readers" can access the data and certify the data as valid.

One-way-in, No-way-out. At least, no way to access unless you want to void the data. Those "Warranty Void if Removed" stickers are pretty damned effective!

Submitted for your consideration... a hard-wired device that records input relative to time. That is, once the recorder starts, it simply records all data-activity - with time-stamps - as the data occurs.

If you try to edit the data, all that happens is that the editing is recorded... key-stroke by keystroke... appended to the end of the data file... while leaving the original data intact.

All that happens is that the amount of recorded information increases until the maximum amount of data. Any attempt at modifying the data is simply recorded... with a time-stamp... the "smokin' gun", as it were.

I think there's a few bucks to be made with this idea. I'll bet ISO (International Standards Orginization) would cream their shorts to see such a thing made available to the common industrial base.
 
Maybe I'm way off base, but couldn't you just parallel the two things... the non resetable hour meter,and the machine On relay, motor starter, whatever,that is controlled by the PLC? If the PLC says "RUN", then they both are on... But you might also check some of the Apollo counters from Red Lion....
David
 
validation

no matter what you do, if you read data into the plc and are going to use it for part 11 compliance, the system will need to be validated for change controls, etc. You still will be required to write the data to non-rewritable medium, if this is a "critical" record. the fda (?) (depending on your individual inspector) will probably want the documentation showing that the record could not be tampered with. Document control procedures will be necessary, explaing who is allowed access to plc program, or, if the program interacts with HMI, then all of those links will have to be validated as well. If the data goes to a histroian, then usually the "newer" histroians have "part 11" controls, such as time/date stamps, login, electronic signatures. So, I would look at it from the approach that the regualtors will require validation no matter what, so what is easier to validate? Complex hooks between external clocks, BCD, etc. or document and user control of program and data? This probably didnt help, so I will stop rambling.
tj
 
Change management, audit trails

http://www.mdtsoft.com/public/news/9803.html
You may want to check this site for change management and audit trail programable device support software. It is plc compatable. Not sure how expensive it is.

I have not used Allen Bradley for a long time but I thought they had a audit trail feature.

Bill
 

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