Ignition Software - questions

tremes said:

Thanks for the info. You call yourself "a rookie". How long have you been at it? What sort of skill set did you start with?

I'm encouraged to hear your feedback about the IU!

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I am working on my 4th Ignition project. They have all been relatively small in scope and size. My first one has about 2000 tags, maybe 20 windows. The other two were basically duplicating what existed on obsolete systems,

I have not used many of the features yet. I am about to embark on one that is small but will include Voice Alarms. We are going to bid on a relatively big project with redundancy and all the bells and whistles. If we get awarded that job and I get through that project, I will no longer be a rookie. Then I will upgrade myself to novice.

Paully's5.0 said:

Oh...boy, you're in for a ride aren't you?

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LOL - Now you know where I'm coming from! However, my boss is great and open minded. Right now the focus is developing our knowledge base. PLCS.net has been awesome!

Paully's5.0 said:

Here's the deal, no matter what solution you decide to use if you don't know where you want to "go" with it, your are prime for failure. Selecting an MES package is only 1% of the project.

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This! I agree completely. We need to first figure what we don't know, create some guidelines and wish lists. Then we'll be better able to figure out where we want to go.

Paully's5.0 said:

Anyway, Ignition is very easy to use and if you have experience with any industrial software you'll pick up Ignition and may not even need the training. Personally I never attended the training but easily become certified with the standard Ignition product (not MES ). If you are new to MES in general, and new to MES software, you should absolutely go to the training as it will pay for itself. Personally, if I had an MES project I would go to the training.

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I'll add this to my report.

Paully's5.0 said:

Otherwise just find an integrator to do the work for you. Which in this case is probably what you need to be doing. Of course before you track down and integrator you have to create some type of user requirements as I've said before. Otherwise how do you even know what you're trying to buy? What is the budget? I hope you've got $100,000+ to spend.

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At some point in time, this may get investigated. For right now, I have to satisfy my bosses curiosity after he told me this:
"I was at a cookout at my neighbors house. He was telling me how they got this cheap quality software and now their operation is running so much better. This is something we could use! It's called Ignition and apparently, it's a breeze to put in and set-up." He later read on the IA website that it's 'ridiculously simple to install'. So, I have to work around 2 sayings that are stuck in his expectations:

1.)breeze to put in 2.)ridiculously simple to install"

We'll get there...

JordanCClark said:

+1 to what Paully said.

There's a Proverb that says "Where there is no vision, the people wander aimlessly". Other versions say "the people perish". Biblical references aside, that's also true with projects. Try to get them to share a vision, and the rest can flow from that.

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I'm with you on this!

JordanCClark said:

That's not to say that there won't be a lot of changes as you go. Sometime the customer (in this case, the boss) needs to see something in-hand before he can say "It's not quite what I had in mind".

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Yeah, I just want to make sure I give him the right thing. Hence, all the investigation.

JordanCClark said:

Oh! The Java limitation Ken is speak of that Jython (the Java implementation of Python) cannot use C-Python libraries. Numpy and Scipy fall into this category.

While Java itself seems to be falling off a bit, the JVM has not, and it's used in other languages. Scala comes immediately to mind.

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This sounds like a higher level item I'll put on the list of things to investigate.

Thanks for helping out!

curlyandshemp said:

Attempt, meaning my live Dog & Pony show did not go well with customer. Probably due to my lack of understanding how the 'canned' OEE project worked from Inductive Automation.

It may be my lack of working knowledge about OEE that made it difficult for me to set up. Perhaps a more experienced OEE programmer may not have had the difficulties I had.

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OEE is one of the items we expect to successfully implement. Is their canned OEE ineffective? How much time did you put into developing it?

curlyandshemp said:

Up until Inductive University was released, the documentation s u c k e d . Inductive were aware of that and even hired a technical writer a few years back to try and improve the documentation.

Before IU, the documentation merely stated but did not actually explain features. Post IU, any time I have a memory lapse or need to learn a new feature I go to IU and watch the respective video(s).

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How much time should I expect to spend in IU? Are we talking days, weeks, months, years? (Assume I don't know any working knowledge)

I'm smack in the middle of implementing the Ignition OEE/Downtime solution now. Compared to other SCADA/HMI solutions all the hype is real when it comes to installation. It's literally possible to go from 0 to fully installed and ready to start on your first project in less than half an hour. I'd be surprised if it took longer than 2 hours. If you're at all curious, they let you download, install, and run the full package for free and it will run normally for 2 hours. At the end of the two hours you can hit "reset trial" and you'll get another 2 hours... indefinitely.

One drawback - of a sort - is that you'll have to provide your own SQL server software. Ignition works with all the biggies, though so at least you have options.

Having said all that, there is still plenty of work to do to go from fully installed to operational project. And a few tricks to learn. I'd definitely recommend IU - think weeks of sitting in front of a computer watching videos. They can get a bit tedious, but they are very effective. They include some hands on work with a downloaded demo project which really helps to get the information to sink in.

Inductive's training at their facility is pretty good, but the last time I looked they didn't have any scheduled for the OEE modules. The basic and advanced classes are very helpful, though.

I've been working with Ignition now for about a year and a half. At this point, I'd recommend it over any other competing software I've used.

The OEE software is very effective and can get you up and collecting data fairly quickly - at least it did for me. We focused on one assembly line to start with and made sure it works right for that line and then we're going to roll it out to the rest of the plant over the next several months.

If you are going to use ignition then you better start learning python and sql. you cant unlock the true potential of the software without it.

I have done projects ranging from 30k to 200k + tags and have worked with the software for around 6-7 years. The software itself is usually pretty stable and can handle large amounts of tags easily.

I am a huge fan of it but also know its limitations. Mobile app is a dud IMHO. It seems to have gotten better, but I dont think it can hang with some of the other vendors solutions that are straight html5. But with Ignition, there is always a workaround. I used the webdev module to develop a html website for mobile. If you need graphics then this prob wont work unless you are very skilled with html, but my data is just tabular and charts.

I can sort of say the same thing about it running in java. I run a hosting service, so I have many customers that are accessing the system. Java is always a sore point and I have lost work because of it. The upside is that the java app will run much faster and have more flexibility when doing certain things than a website. At the same time, it is also affected more by slow or laggy internet connections.

I think the notification modules also need some work. Voice notification is limited to 1 channel and hasnt been really optimized to handle lots of callouts simultaneously. Email and sms notification also lacks the ability to retry a user on a roster before moving to the next person on the roster, which I dont understand why since voice allows you to do this. Weird little things like this pop up from time to time which can be frustrating, but overall, especially for the price, I think you cant find a better software.

I really enjoy working in the software. I think if they would eventually move to something that could produce their graphics in an html5 webpage, they would destroy the competition. The flexibility is great. I think sometimes because it is so flexible, that when you cant actually do something in the software it leaves a bad taste in your mouth moreso than it would in another less capable software like wonderware.

I cant speak for the mes stuff, as I have never even looked at it.

I also looked at B-SCADA software recently, and was pretty impressed. It didnt look quite as flexible as Ignition but it did have some pretty slick features.

cbuysse said:

I'm smack in the middle of implementing the Ignition OEE/Downtime solution now. Compared to other SCADA/HMI solutions all the hype is real when it comes to installation. It's literally possible to go from 0 to fully installed and ready to start on your first project in less than half an hour. I'd be surprised if it took longer than 2 hours. If you're at all curious, they let you download, install, and run the full package for free and it will run normally for 2 hours. At the end of the two hours you can hit "reset trial" and you'll get another 2 hours... indefinitely.

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Not quite ready for the trial but this is good to know.

cbuysse said:

One drawback - of a sort - is that you'll have to provide your own SQL server software. Ignition works with all the biggies, though so at least you have options.

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ok

cbuysse said:

Having said all that, there is still plenty of work to do to go from fully installed to operational project. And a few tricks to learn. I'd definitely recommend IU - think weeks of sitting in front of a computer watching videos. They can get a bit tedious, but they are very effective. They include some hands on work with a downloaded demo project which really helps to get the information to sink in.

Inductive's training at their facility is pretty good, but the last time I looked they didn't have any scheduled for the OEE modules. The basic and advanced classes are very helpful, though.

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Great!

cbuysse said:

I've been working with Ignition now for about a year and a half. At this point, I'd recommend it over any other competing software I've used.

The OEE software is very effective and can get you up and collecting data fairly quickly - at least it did for me. We focused on one assembly line to start with and made sure it works right for that line and then we're going to roll it out to the rest of the plant over the next several months.

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the info!

diat150 said:

If you are going to use ignition then you better start learning python and sql. you cant unlock the true potential of the software without it.

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This is good to know! I'll add this to my notes.

diat150 said:

I have done projects ranging from 30k to 200k + tags and have worked with the software for around 6-7 years. The software itself is usually pretty stable and can handle large amounts of tags easily.

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Can you help me out with what you mean by 'tags'?

Has the 6-7 years been deployment/development for the same facility/project?

Is project mainly for reporting or are there control type options (like if I wanted to program the control of a welding robot)?

diat150 said:

I am a huge fan of it but also know its limitations. Mobile app is a dud IMHO. It seems to have gotten better, but I dont think it can hang with some of the other vendors solutions that are straight html5. But with Ignition, there is always a workaround. I used the webdev module to develop a html website for mobile. If you need graphics then this prob wont work unless you are very skilled with html, but my data is just tabular and charts.

I can sort of say the same thing about it running in java. I run a hosting service, so I have many customers that are accessing the system. Java is always a sore point and I have lost work because of it. The upside is that the java app will run much faster and have more flexibility when doing certain things than a website. At the same time, it is also affected more by slow or laggy internet connections.

I think the notification modules also need some work. Voice notification is limited to 1 channel and hasnt been really optimized to handle lots of callouts simultaneously. Email and sms notification also lacks the ability to retry a user on a roster before moving to the next person on the roster, which I dont understand why since voice allows you to do this. Weird little things like this pop up from time to time which can be frustrating, but overall, especially for the price, I think you cant find a better software.

I really enjoy working in the software. I think if they would eventually move to something that could produce their graphics in an html5 webpage, they would destroy the competition. The flexibility is great. I think sometimes because it is so flexible, that when you cant actually do something in the software it leaves a bad taste in your mouth moreso than it would in another less capable software like wonderware.

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This is tremendous information. The notification aspect is certainly a high priority item for us. I'll be investigating this further!

diat150 said:

I cant speak for the mes stuff, as I have never even looked at it.

I also looked at B-SCADA software recently, and was pretty impressed. It didnt look quite as flexible as Ignition but it did have some pretty slick features.

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Thanks!

diat150 said:

Mobile app is a dud IMHO. It seems to have gotten better, but I dont think it can hang with some of the other vendors solutions that are straight html5. But with Ignition, there is always a workaround..

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Could not agree more about the Mobile Module. There is now a VNC service option, where you can use a VNC Viewer on a tablet which is much better than the Mobile app.

We are also looking at using tablets that can run Java, then the mobile module is not needed.

tremes said:

Can you help me out with what you mean by 'tags'?

Has the 6-7 years been deployment/development for the same facility/project?

Is project mainly for reporting or are there control type options (like if I wanted to program the control of a welding robot)?



This is tremendous information. The notification aspect is certainly a high priority item for us. I'll be investigating this further!



Thanks!

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by tags I mean what ignition calls sqltags. Most would be opc tags but a small amount would be memory or expression tags.

No this has been multiple projects. ranging from thousands of tags to hundreds of thousands of tags.

Most of this is just for monitoring and notification purposes, but some do control. Im not sure what you mean by programming the control of a welding robot, that is something that I would do in a plc. If need be I would have Ignition issue the command to start the welding process in the PLC. In my case, it is mostly doing things like opening or closing valves that are controlled by a plc.

curlyandshemp said:

I am a very big flag waver for Ignition and love the product.
I did attempt an OEE live demo for a dog and pony show for a potential customer.

The MES portion of Ignition can be difficult to set up.
There is a dedicated training course in Folsom CA just for MES.
I have not checked Inductive Univerisity, but there are videos for MES

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I'll second this. I've been tasked with developing a relatively small Track and Trace project with the SepaSoft MES module. I even went to their training for the MES modules. Short story is that they have tried to make modules that are infinitely usable across all segments and environments, and in so doing have created a product that is so complicated it is nearly unusable!

Trying to get help form SepaSoft results in regurgitation of examples of code snippets that are sourced from their online documentation (something you can, with effort, find on your own). Having the documentation make more sense and actually be "helpful" would, in my opinion, be a good first step for the company.

mgallgood said:

I'll second this. I've been tasked with developing a relatively small Track and Trace project with the SepaSoft MES module. I even went to their training for the MES modules. Short story is that they have tried to make modules that are infinitely usable across all segments and environments, and in so doing have created a product that is so complicated it is nearly unusable!

Trying to get help form SepaSoft results in regurgitation of examples of code snippets that are sourced from their online documentation (something you can, with effort, find on your own). Having the documentation make more sense and actually be "helpful" would, in my opinion, be a good first step for the company.

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I should clarify that my previous comments are specifically about the MES modules produced by SepaSoft.

I, like others here, are a big fan of Ignition. That product is easy to learn, install, configure, and use!