Which network should I use?

kra101

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Join Date
Sep 2005
Location
Kerala
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Dear All,

I have a new project where I have 18 warehouses. In each warehouse I need one SLC and a SCADA (Rsview32) for the total project. Out of 18 SLCs 1 will be master. The client has requested to provide 7 points in each warehouse where he should be able to connect his laptop to see the temperature, RH% and the statuse of the machines in that warehouse.
Now my questions are which network should I use? The total network cable length is about 2500 meters. How can I provide 7 points in each warehouse to access the network? Ethernet would be a choice?

I have no idea about the Ethernet network components.
Please advice.

Thanks in advance,
KRA.
 
Which SLCs do you have?
If you have the 5/05Es, Ethernet is a good choice. That being said, Cat 5e is only good for ~ 100 m, so you'd need fiber Ethernet Switches if it's over that.

Moxa makes a good Industrial Switch with Fiber built into them.
 
CroCop thanks for the quick replay. SLCs are not yet purchased. So if I select 5/05Es, I need 18 switches for SLCs and 7 in each warehouse for client to access the network? Are there any limitations of nodes in Ethernet network?

Regards,
KRA.
 
Actually no, you would have a slc 505 and one switch per warehouse. You would put a swich with the slc (10 port perhaps) 1 port for the SLC one for the RSView term and 7 for the remote plug in locations as well as one to bridge to the next building. If one warehouse can handle the 100m restriction then you will be fine. As long as none of your segments exceeds 100m then you will also be fine. You will want to find a centralized point in your warehouse locations to put the main PLC and a hub. If any of the segments exceeds 100m then you will need to install repeaters or fibre switches to bridge the distance gap.

Make sense? think of a firework exploding with the center being your primary PLC/switch and smaller secondary outgoing explosions being additional switches. any single segment from switch to switch cannot exeed 100m without repeaters

Hope this helps.
Marc
 
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I suspect you have a reasonable chance to do the network in copper. The application is not control, but supervisory in nature.

The spec for ethernet is 100 meters, meaning that use of components that meet the spec (cable, connectors, hubs, switches, NIC cards) will get you 100m reliable service.
But that doesn't mean that an ethernet signal dies at 101m.
Some time back there was a discussion on this forum about distances people had achieved, many in excess of 100m.

It isn't clear exactly what your topology is, but a 2500 meter run through multiple (18 or so) active switches might very well be doable, with some 120 or 150m runs in the mix. The cost of switches is very low so adding several to cover long runs between nodes won't break the budget.

Dan

Given the relative ease of ethernet cable installation (low voltage and all), I'd give it very serious consideration, even if some runs exceed 100m.
 
Somewhere in the dim dark past I remember reading that there is a limit of the number of switches you can have in a Rockwell ethernet network. Or maybe just an ethernet network. By number of switches I mean how many times the signal can go into a switch and out again. ie to get 2500 metres than you have to have 25 switches. (TTL or time to live rings a bell.) Edited the bracketed bit. TTL refers only to routers. I am sure someone can clarify this for me.
Also remember a compactlogix is now cheaper (and a lot more powerful) than an SLC.
What I was thinking of was the 5 4 3 rule which is not valid with switches.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.rhyshaden.com/ethernet.htm
that explains a bit more.

4.5 Fast Ethernet (802.3u) 100BaseTx



Fast Ethernet uses the same frame formats and CSMA/CD technology as normal 10Mbps Ethernet. The difference is that the maximum delay for the signal across the segment is now 5.12 microseconds instead of 51.2 microseconds. This comes from the fact that the bit time (time to transmit one bit) is 0.01 microseconds and that the slot time for a frame is 512 bit times. The Inter-Packet Gap (IPG) for 802.3u is 0.96 microseconds as opposed to 9.6 microseconds for 10Mbps Ethernet.


Fast Ethernet is the most popular of the newer standards and is an extension to 10BaseT, using CSMA/CD. The '100' denotes 100Mbps data speed and it uses the same two pairs as 10BaseT (1 and 2 for transmit, 3 and 6 for receive) and must only be used on Category 5 UTP cable installations with provision for it to be used on Type 1 STP. The Copper physical layer being based on the Twisted Pair-Physical Medium Dependent (TP-PMD) developed by ANSI X3T9.5 committee. The actual data throughput increases by between 3 to 4 times that of 10BaseT.


Whereas 10BaseT uses Normal Link Pulses (NLP) for testing the integrity of the connection, 100BaseT uses Fast Link Pulses (FLP) which are backwardly compatible with NLPs but contain more information. FLPs are used to detect the speed of the network (e.g. in 10/100 switchable cards and ports).


The ten-fold increase in speed is achieved by reducing the time it takes to transmit a bit to a tenth that of 10BaseT. The slot-time is the time it takes to transmit 512 bits on 10Mbps Ethernet (i.e. 5.12 microseconds) and listen for a collision (see earlier). This remains the same for 100BaseT, but the network distance between nodes, or span, is reduced. The encoding used is 4B/5B with MLT-3 wave shaping plus FSR. This wave-shaping takes the clock frequency of 125MHz and reduces it to 31.25MHz which is the frequency of the carrier on the wire.


The round trip signal timing is the critical factor when it comes to the distance that the signal can run on copper UTP. The cable has to be Category 5 and the distance must not exceed 100m.


The IEEE use the term 100BaseX to refer to both 100BaseTx and 100BaseFx and the Media-Independent Interface (MII) allows a generic connector for transceivers to connect to 100BaseTx, 100BaseFx and 100BaseT4 LANs.


There is no such thing as the 5-4-3 rule in Fast Ethernet. All 10Base-T repeaters are considered to be functionally identical. Fast Ethernet repeaters are divided into two classes of repeater, Class I and Class II. A Class I repeater has a repeater propagation delay value of 140 bit times, whilst a Class II repeater is 92 bit times. The Class I repeater (or Translational Repeater) can support different signalling types such as 100BaseTx and 100BaseT4. A Class I repeater transmits or repeats the incoming line signals on one port to the other ports by first translating them to digital signals and then retranslating them to line signals. The translations are necessary when connecting different physical media (media conforming to more than one physical layer specification) to the same collision domain. Any repeater with an MII port would be a Class I device. Only one Class I repeater can exist within a single collision domain, so this type of repeater cannot be cascaded. There is only allowed one Class I repeater hop in any one segment.


A Class II repeater immediately transmits or repeats the incoming line signals on one port to the other ports: it does not perform any translations. This repeater type connects identical media to the same collision domain (for example, TX to TX). At most, two Class II repeaters can exist within a single collision domain. The cable used to cascade the two devices is called and unpopulated segment or IRL (Inter-Repeater Link). The Class II repeater (or Transparent Repeater) can only support one type of physical signalling, however you can have two Class II repeater hops in any one segment (Collision Domain).




Regards Alan Case
 
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I'm trying to work out why nobody has suggested wireless - at least in place of the
"7 points in each warehouse where he should be able to connect his laptop to see the temperature, RH% and the statuse of the machines in that warehouse."
 
The neatest solution would be a fiber backbone laid in a ring.
If one fiber cable fails, all switches will still be available.
If one of the switches fails, the others will still be available.
The SLCs may connect directly to a switch.
And you can sprinkle so many wifi access points over the place so that you have full coverage.

I wouldnt connect too many switches in series without some redundancy. That is not practical with cupper cables and switches.

DH+ goes to max 10000 ft (= 3048 m). But you would have to place 7 DH+ access points somehow, and you would have the problem with providing all laptops with PCMK cards.
 
I agree with Gerry, a wireless sytem would make the most sense particuarly if each warehouse will have it's own PLC to do the control and the network is purely for monitoring. There are a lot of good and fairly cost efficent wireless devices avaliable nowday's ELPRO and Phoenix are just a couple.
 
Please don't bash me for trying to talk about a product that might be a good fit for this application.

Banner Engineering is rolling out with their wireless I/O network products. They have nodes that work with discrete and analog I/O. They are also producing a node that is specifically designed to read in temp & RH. Here is a link to a pdf of the product.

Banner Wireless pdf

I could see the wireless I/O nodes reading in a discrete input from the machines being on and also monitoring the temp/RH readings. Each one of the warehouses would have a Gateway that would then speak ModbusTCP on Ethernet.

Should I write more about this or am I stepping over boundries.

Thanks,
Joe_WaZoo
 
Joe_WaZoo said:
Please don't bash me for trying to talk about a product that might be a good fit for this application.

Banner Engineering is rolling out with their wireless I/O network products. They have nodes that work with discrete and analog I/O. They are also producing a node that is specifically designed to read in temp & RH. Here is a link to a pdf of the product.

Banner Wireless pdf

I could see the wireless I/O nodes reading in a discrete input from the machines being on and also monitoring the temp/RH readings. Each one of the warehouses would have a Gateway that would then speak ModbusTCP on Ethernet.

Should I write more about this or am I stepping over boundries.

Thanks,
Joe_WaZoo

This looks good. I had a salesman stop by showing the same thing, and soon they should roll out the Etherent/IP version.

Looks like a great product, now only if they'd roll it out & get me a demo to try out.....
 
Gerry said:
I'm trying to work out why nobody has suggested wireless - at least in place of the
"7 points in each warehouse where he should be able to connect his laptop to see the temperature, RH% and the statuse of the machines in that warehouse."
I was going to write the same :)
 
Dear All,
After going through all your replies I have decided to use Ethernet. Thank you very much for your advices.

Regards,
KRA.
 

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