Attention Europeans: Wire Numbering Question

theColonel26 · Nov 3, 2019

I have heard that in Europe the most common wire number scheme is a unique number for each wire. As opposed to wire numbers based on "Net" that is common in the U.S.

For Example: Positive control power (after breakers fuses etc. ) in a "By Net" scheme you may have 50 wires that supply power to different things. They all would have the same number.

In a number "By Wire" scheme you would have 50 different wires each with their own number.

(Yes "By Wire" is still done in the U.S. but it's not as common)

Thoughts?

bill4807 · Nov 3, 2019

Some equipment we get from europe has the same wiring/numbering scheme that equipment in the US uses.

Jeebs · Nov 4, 2019

There isn't one unifying system used in Europe.

For instance we have several machines where the wires have different numbers on both ends. To signify where they are going to. Wow, great, right? Not if you have a complete rail with A1 or A2 wire "numbers" cuz all the wires go to contactors. /rant

Most of our machines use wire numbers from where the signal originates. When you have a 380V->24V PSU the wires coming from the 24V side all have the same number. Even if it passes distribution rails. The number only changes once a device is connected, such as a fuse. Then all the wires connected to the output of the fuse are numbered identically.

And then you got other machines where the wires are numbered based on what it is connected to. And that number is generated by some OEM internal naming/numbering scheme that's too complicated for the lower part of the sparky pool to understand.

cardosocea · Nov 4, 2019

I don't think there is an European standard as I've seen terminations labelled with wire numbers or where the wire is supposed to go.

Both have weaknesses and strengths. I'd personally like to have both, but there's only so much information you can put on a label.

JesperMP · Nov 4, 2019

Jeebs said:
For instance we have several machines where the wires have different numbers on both ends. To signify where they are going to. Wow, great, right? Not if you have a complete rail with A1 or A2 wire "numbers" cuz all the wires go to contactors. /rant

Some in my company uses this scheme. It is next to worthless IMO.

When I and my colleagues have a say, we number the wires "by net".

I can see that numbering "by wire" is in theory the most correct. Every wire is a component, so every wire gets a unique name. It also means more work, longer wire numbers, so I guess we havent jumped on this because noone has requested it.

controlconcepts · Nov 4, 2019

A easy way I find to not have the same wire numbers for power and common -24 or neutral is to simply add a .XX to the common point. Example

Wire # 24vp.01 common to next device 24vp.02 ect.
It drives me nuts to see the same wire number going to 30 different places with 30 of tje same number. I like to distinguish where they all go. Makes no sense to me to have the same number for essentially 30 different wires. Makes trouble shooting a lot less painful. Just my 2 cents of OCD.

LadderLogic · Nov 5, 2019

I think the confusion is caused by software like EPLAN, where by default identifying wires "by net" is not in option. Each wire is a unique "connection", which, if you think about it, helps to generate a "connections list" from the schematics for a wiring guy to follow.

You can simulate "by net" wiring assigning the same connection identifiers (a.k.a. "wire numbers") to different wires - the software allows you to do that. But you have to be careful and not to forget, say, to assign the same "wire number" to all the wires connected to the same terminal block as EPLAN would not recognize them being on the same net automatically.

Since EPLAN is very popular in Europe, this is where the idea of some European standard might have come from.

Aabeck · Nov 5, 2019

I work on quite a few German, Italian, British and French machines and all the ones I get into have one common number across all wires that are the same.

IE - +24VDC = 24 or 2224
0VDC = 22 or 2222

Having different wire numbers for the 100 or so +24V wires would be confusing.

Bob O · Nov 5, 2019

For my learning...I've never heard of the terms "By Net" or "By Wire". Where do these originate from?

Thanks,

tragically1969 · Nov 5, 2019

theColonel26 said:
I have heard that in Europe the most common wire number scheme is a unique number for each wire. As opposed to wire numbers based on "Net" that is common in the U.S.

For Example: Positive control power (after breakers fuses etc. ) in a "By Net" scheme you may have 50 wires that supply power to different things. They all would have the same number.

In a number "By Wire" scheme you would have 50 different wires each with their own number.

(Yes "By Wire" is still done in the U.S. but it's not as common)

Thoughts?

We use the same number on both ends of the wire, it only changes wire number when going through a device, a common rail with 50 wires would have 50 wires of the same number in it.

daba · Nov 5, 2019

I would hate to have to work in a panel that had "by wire" numbering. I reckon you'd be constantly going back and forth between the panel and the schematics to find out where a wire goes to.

A wire, to me, cannot have different identifications at the two ends, because it is just one piece of wire, how can it have two identities? And when you join one wire to another, it adopts the same identity.

So intuitively numbering "by net" becomes the obvious choice for me.

Just my 2c

Aabeck · Nov 5, 2019

Daba,

I work on a couple of hoists where every wire has different numbers at each end. Instead of any wire numbers the wires are labelled for the terminal they connect to at each end. TB3-2 goes to CR1-11, etc.

Tragically,

I didn't take the OP as numbering the ends of a single wire different.

To me it was if there are 100 +24V wires going off a section of terminals or bus that each wire is not labelled #24 but every one has a different wire number.

If you got into a remote junction box on the machine and was looking for wire #24 to be +24V then that wire might be #845 and you would have to trace each and every wire through the schematic.

Tom Jenkins · Nov 5, 2019

daba said:
I would hate to have to work in a panel that had "by wire" numbering. I reckon you'd be constantly going back and forth between the panel and the schematics to find out where a wire goes to.

A wire, to me, cannot have different identifications at the two ends, because it is just one piece of wire, how can it have two identities? And when you join one wire to another, it adopts the same identity.

So intuitively numbering "by net" becomes the obvious choice for me.

Just my 2c

+1

Any wire that has the same electrical state should have the same number. Tha includes both sides of a terminal strip, which is electrically just another bit of wire. That method makes trouble shooting significantly simpler.

bill4807 · Nov 5, 2019

Aabeck said:
Daba,

I work on a couple of hoists where every wire has different numbers at each end. Instead of any wire numbers the wires are labelled for the terminal they connect to at each end. TB3-2 goes to CR1-11, etc.

Similiar to this, i've had a few grinders from germany that did just that every wire was labeled for the terminal they connect to. On top of that the labels were printed on the insulation of the wire. So you could not trace them or see them easily.

lfe · Nov 5, 2019

Tom Jenkins said:
+1

Any wire that has the same electrical state should have the same number. Tha includes both sides of a terminal strip, which is electrically just another bit of wire. That method makes trouble shooting significantly simpler.

+ 1

That is what I have always used until about 5 years ago that I stopped making electrical panels and machinery installations.
For example, I used to use a single 0V common for all AC and DC supplies. the same for everything and grounded at a single point (all power supplies came from transformer or power supply, without using the neutral).
This common net was numbered the same everywhere, hundreds of cable ends with the same identification.

Attention Europeans: Wire Numbering Question

theColonel26

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Jeebs

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cardosocea

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controlconcepts

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