Creating Back Ups

SpecialK87

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Join Date
Sep 2018
Location
Missouri
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Hello,

I recently started at a new position and they want me to start backing up all the programs. I am looking for some guidance with coming up with an overall view of how could/should it be done. How do I do it? Are there different procedures for different processors? Where should I store it? Should I make several back ups stored in different places? How often do I do it? Can it be done automatically on a schedule?

It includes RSLogix 500 & 5000 programs which are on several different types of processors including: Mircologix 1100 1763-L16BWA, MicroLogix 1500 1764-LRPC, SLC 5/05 1747-L551/C , Compatlogix 1769-L35E, or ControlLogix 1756-L61.

Additionally, we use WonderWare Intouch, WonderWare Historian, Dream Reports, and Win911. Any guidance with backing up any of these would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
Kyle
 
If the backup requirement is for the online processor images, then Factory Talk Asset Centre/Disaster Recovery is the Rockwell product designed for this purpose. It can do most of what you are asking, although backups in multiple locations may require external database replication.

On the other hand, if your offline programs are well maintained and online data is not critical, there are less complex and costly options mentioned in other threads on this forum.

My experience is only with Asset Centre. o_O
 
Excuse me for being a novice... what is the difference between the online data and offline?

The programs don't seem very well maintained, the last guy left me a disorganized mess that I'm trying to clean up/ decypher.
 
Excuse me for being a novice... what is the difference between the online data and offline?

The programs don't seem very well maintained, the last guy left me a disorganized mess that I'm trying to clean up/ decypher.


My understanding was he was referring to actual values of things in a running state, such as digital inputs or outputs being a 1 or a 0 or the exact analog values (measurements, analog outputs). For example, do they want to be able to look at what the values were when the backup was made, or do they just want a copy of the program.
 
At there was a software package out there called Version Control I tried it for a short time. It was geared trod a team concept where you check the file in and check it out Multiple team members cab check out the same file and when it check I back in it saves each with user and time stamp along with a backup of the original. Depending on how you set it up but it's a lot of work to set up and use.
I recently set up a Cloud Drive on my local network that also has internet access from anyplace I happen to be. When I am finished with a file I just copy it over to my cloud . You just have to organize the files and remember to do you backups regularly
the part I like is it's available to me no mater where I am working as long as I have internet it even works with my phone so I can transfer files if needed.
The main thing is organization of the files so you can find them
 
I have always had a issue with this and never came up with a good solution, it would be nice if AB came up with a auto recovery software that could run on a local network and would update (upload) at given set times, its such a pain when you have 3 shifts and half of the people have laptops and the other have are on the network and they are all making changes.... what a pain
 
My understanding was he was referring to actual values of things in a running state, such as digital inputs or outputs being a 1 or a 0 or the exact analog values (measurements, analog outputs). For example, do they want to be able to look at what the values were when the backup was made, or do they just want a copy of the program.

It is a good question, and this basically captures it.

You can answer it this way: Are your back-ups good enough so that in the event of a failure requiring the backup, you can just reload the program that was last uploaded and saved in a known location; or: (1) do you need more recent snapshots of the data files that change while the program is running, and/or (2) there are multiple people making changes and you are not sure if your "official" offline back-up is the latest version?

If your offline programs are stored in a common location and transient values in the data tables are not critical, a back-up process as simple as a Windows scheduled task to copy from the common location to a timestamp-named folder might be good enough. (Transient values would be things like part counts, part tracking data, etc. that change while the process/machine is running.)

But if (1) and/or (2) applies, you may need to get scheduled snapshots of the online program. FT Asset Centre does this by effectively uploading and storing the online image according to a schedule for a processor or group of processors. Since this is done at a point-in-time, the online data will only be "good" to the schedule period (e.g, every hour, every 4 hours, every day, etc.).

It also depends a bit on whether your mandate is to make this happen "at any cost," meaning you could bring in Rockwell to work with you and your IT department to set up and maintain the whole thing.
 
mylespetro

ahhh... I see. thank you for the clarification. The data does not have to be backed-up, only the programs themselves.

Gary

I will be the only one accessing/changing these programs 99% of the time. I essentially have free reign when it comes to putting together the organization of this system. There is a 2TB external HD that is connected to one of the PCs on the network when I'm on site. And I will have remote access to the PC/HD whenever I need.

I am just trying to come up with an easy, organized, efficient way of doing things. And since I am somewhat new to this, I'm looking for ideas and information.

So... Since I'm the only one that's going to make changes. Should I just save it in 2 places? On the computer where they are used and on the HD???
 
I tried the networked PC running as a file server for a while. It didn't work out all that well always had to keep updating it and working on it also the power consumption of a full pc running 24/7 Windows need to be rebooted at least once a week to refresh the buffers.

Check out Western Digital mycloud put it on the network set it up and forget about.
Just map the cloud drive to you PC set to reconnect on start up and treat it like a local drive. You should keep a current copy on both the local PC and the Backup (Cloud) Drive you could also sign up with one drive , goggle drive or others and back up there. I just like to keep my data in my control no depending on others
 
Keep a backup on the computer you normally use for programming and troubleshooting. Keep a second backup on a different computer that you always have access to. Keep a third backup on a thumb drive that you keep in the same cabinet as the PLC.
Version control is a separate issue from backups. It becomes more of a problem in plants that operate 24/7 with multiple people authorized to make program changes. One method I tried was to include a text variable in each PLC program that carried version information. I would display that variable on the HMI so that any technician could tell immediately what version was running on the PLC and compare it to the version on their personal laptop. Of course, its success depended on each technician having the self-discipline to update the value in the variable whenever they made changes. In addition the first rung of the main ladder program had a rung comment that was supposed to be updated with an explanation of the changes made.
 
Something to consider with those processors that use Logix500. Rung comments are not stored in the processor, only in the offline file on the PC. Just downloading the program from the processor will get you the program but none of that super useful information that *might* be in your offline files. I suggest you attempt to go online with each processor and point RSL500 to your best guess of the offline file for that processor. Save your backup after you're online and see rung comments.

Shawn
 
You don't need fancy equipment and such to do this. There are a series of tedious steps that you will have to undertake, but when you are done, you will be all set up. Then you can just update backups as changes are made and schedule a once or twice a year for backups. This method is largely by hand, but given that you just started this position and are on here asking how to do backups, I'm thinking that you aren't in a massive facility.

You will need:

A dedicated notebook
A camera / camera phone (for taking pictures if anything stumps you)
Free time to perform your task

You will likely want to take two passes throughout the facility. The first is just with a notebook and camera. It is easier when unencumbered by a laptop. Start at one end of the facility and go to the other. You will want to take a note of every single piece of equipment that has a PLC/HMI of any type in it. Record the following at each stop:

  1. Machine Name
  2. PLC Brand / Processor number or type
  3. Note any blinking battery lights
  4. Note any network connection/ ip address / login information and write it down
  5. Note any HMI's and get their numbers

Make a note of any of this information you missed and need to get on your return trip. Now, do the following:

  1. Get your hands on spares and test bench to practice program backup.
  2. Test on spares (saying again so you don't screw up production)
  3. Make sure your laptop has the proper versions of all needed software
  4. Aquire all the necessary cables
  5. Don't forget, the HMI programs need backed up too!
  6. Put all the information for each system into a nice, neat spreadsheet and put it somewhere safe.
  7. Order any batteries you may need, as it is often easiest to just change them while you do your backups.

This seems like a lot, because it is. We had right around 100 PLC's and I'm not sure how many HMI's. In the process of doing firmware upgrades, documenting networked systems and changing batteries, it took me just over a month to complete. Nothing was labeled, logins and passwords were missing and it was just a total mess. Heck, it still is. I didn't stay long enough to clean it up.

Good luck to you!
 
Good luck with the new position.

I came into this role with a similar task just over 5 years ago. No handover from previous people and backups etc all over the place.
SLC, PLC5, CLX PLCs, network configs, InTouch etc to be documented.
Remit for "disaster recovery", and backups are only one part of that.

I went round the plant, more than once, into each cabinet that possibly had a PLC or automation equipment. Took an Install Base catalog where I could find the part numbers - all PLCs, racks, modules, HMI etc. So now I know how many of each PLC part we have installed (Rockwell only, Siemens S5 was and is beyond me...). This has allowed me to update our spares list for the Rockwell contract.

Then I made up my PLC spreadsheet.
PLC Model number, name, firmware/software version, I/O type, IP address(es).
This then developed to include new tabs for RSNetworx config files, list of messages between PLCs, what SCADAs take info from what PLCs.

Then PLC backups. Get all the software you need. Find various backups, and see if someone has the latest or master backup - especially so for comments.
Get online with all your PLCs and save the PLC code whilst the plant is running. Save to your laptop initially, then to a network drive and/or a portable hard drive, or a NAS drive. Get them saved first and organised later.

Find out what Network configs you have - devicenet, controlnet. Seek out these files, if not then you will have to break into the networks on down days to capture the network setups and save them afresh.

Then the SCADA. Find all your licences for InTouch, and versions. Go into each SCADA and document - application, comms type, PC specification, any other loaded software, take a backup of the application and the comms configuration. Check and save the licence files - create a spreadsheet with applications and licence numbers, and tag count (applicable for licence size).

Start to build up a database of all that you need if a PLC crashed, how would you get it up and running.
Hardware, software, laptop, cables.....
Same with a SCADA - get a spare PC or consider a virtual machine, load up a VM with only one version of the SCADA, and copy all suitable applications into it. Create a Master Backup PC for the SCADA which can replace most of your systems with minimal fuss and downtime.

the list goes on...................after 5 years, we are still developing, updating, keeping track of what goes on...
 
i was in your same delima at my last job.
this is what i preached and still do andd is my 2 cents.
this is a lengthy post, but it explains what you need.

you asked the question what is the difference between online data and off ine.
online data is the current values in the plc program as it runs, timers, counters, integers, real, control registers.
off line data is what is in the plc rogram when you saved the program to the pc.

RULE #1
the program in the plc is the current program and it is the master copy !
all plc programs stored on network drives, pc's, memory sticks are backup copies only
and must be considered incorrect. the only time backup copies of the program are to be considered the masters, is when the current program has gone nuts due to bubba making changes and can't remember what he did!!
when going online, make a backup copy of your program first, then upload the program if required.
then when you can get online with no issues, you can edit the program and save it. backups can be your friend.
Rule #2, when in doubt, refer to rule #1

Step 1. have a folder on the network created that you, your manager, and IT can read write to, NO ONE ELSE!
this is the master copy where the plc programs will be stored.
have a second folder created that everyone can access with read / write capabilities for maintenance.

step 2. programming naming scheme.
we had over 50 buildings and various areas in each building.
separate the plc programs into buildings, departments.
name the plc program based on the machine and then add the date, for example extruder23-11-14-18.
the machine name is extruder23 and the date is 11-14-18, this is when the program was saved / modified.
when there is an issue, maintenance copies the program to their laptop or opens the file in the maintenance folder and uses it.
when a minor change is made (bad input / output) document the input / output is bad and save the program under the same name.
when logic is changed, say in 3 weeks, save the program as extruder23-12-5-18 and document the change.
test the program change for a week or two. if the issue is solved, copy the program into the master folder.
Step 3.
discuss this plan with your boss first, get his input.
then discuss with engineering, maintenance managers.
then discuss with the maintenance personnel who can make changes.

each programming laptop has a user name and password that only they know, this helps keep bubba outof the laptop. they DO NOT give the password to anyone! change the password every 90 days or so.
programs are to be stored on the maintenance folder ONLY!
no jump drives, floppies, or personal files.
when programs are modified, have them notify you and your boss of the change, the program name and reason for the change.
have them save the new program back to the folder.
you then get the notice, see what was done, and tell them to erase the program from the pc.

explain to them that there will be consequences for failing to follow the rules.
written warnings, laptop confiscated and no more programming capabilities.

it will be hard at first, but eventually you will separate bubba from the capable people.
i had to goto every machine and get a good copy, wasn't easy. there was plc programs, panelview programs, rsview programs, speciality displays and so on.

at my current location, we have read only allen bradley software for most maintenance people.
they can go online, toggle and force i/o only.
there are only 2 wonder ware programming stations controlled by the IT department (we are the programmers and all are engineers). there are 2 maintenance laptops for slc500 and plc5. they use the read only version of logix 5000 when required. there are 2 plc programmers and a manager we trust.

again, this is what i had to do and is my opinion
hope this helps,
james
 
First of all, thank you for all of the great responses. I have many ideas to help me choose which route I'm going to go. My plan is to first document all the assets and create my spreadsheet. And also inventory my hardware and get anything I might need in case of disaster. As far as backing up goes, for now I will just make copies of the programs and put them on the hard drive.

Something to consider with those processors that use Logix500. Rung comments are not stored in the processor, only in the offline file on the PC. Just downloading the program from the processor will get you the program but none of that super useful information that *might* be in your offline files. I suggest you attempt to go online with each processor and point RSL500 to your best guess of the offline file for that processor. Save your backup after you're online and see rung comments.

Shawn

Okay, so if I know my program has comments and I save a copy to the hard drive, it too will have comments?

Also, if I happen to move the offline file to a new folder(I want to organize my folders and sub-folder better) I just have to change the "Project Files Search Path". Is that correct?
 

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