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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:15 AM   #31
LoganB
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It's not that my generation is lazy, it's that it's been drilled into us from the very beginning that in order to be successful you MUST go to university. All the driven people that want to succeed and work hard are becoming doctors and civil (PE) engineers. I was lucky that my dad was already in the controls field or I would never have even known it existed. That's not hyperbole either. Schools didn't talk about this stuff as a rule. I agree that a big part of the problem is that the trade positions are still not being properly incentivized by employers, and until companies start doing so, people won't be actively clamoring to enter the field, which means schools won't invest money in the programs.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:39 AM   #32
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I have been reading this post since it started trying to think of what I should say.

I 100% agree with LoganB. I graduated in 2005 and they seemed to be steering everyone towards university that had high marks in anything. And then those struggling to graduate were sent to.trades.
The fact of the matter is, we need intelligent people in trades too. I got lucky on a sense. I didn't come from money and I also didn't know what to take in university so I decided to start working where ever I could find employment and save money. But I also grew up on a farm and thus know what hard work is.
I ended up working for a trucking company learning to.drive truck and helping a welder in the shop. He convinced me.to.go.get a ticket in a trade and I never looked back.
This is a huge failing in society. And yes wages aren't as good as they should.be. I work in the oilpatch now and it pays decent compared to.manufacturing. We are just above operators but.also have to have alot.more expensive tools and parts on us so.
Going back to 2005 again, most of my graduating class went to college or.university and wasted money. Some wound up in trades later with debt. Some with degrees but too.many with same degree looking for work. And then a few got lucky. Meanwhile the trades are screaming for guys. And here we get 3/4 of tuition for trades paid for by the government plus grants and employment insurance paid while in school. It really is a no-brainer if they would.push it.more in highschool
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #33
VAN
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Originally Posted by DwSoFt View Post
Meanwhile the trades are screaming for guys.
Yeah, lots of screaming but no talk of paying more.

I always find it funny that "people are hard to get" and "talent always leaves", then you look at the pay and your like... If you just took 10% off your (CEO/Admin) yearly bonus maybe their would be more incentive to stick around.

The same company will also turn around and just fire a bunch of people without warning...

Last edited by VAN; October 9th, 2017 at 09:53 AM. Reason: reasons
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Old October 9th, 2017, 10:57 AM   #34
John Morris
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My father retired from service in 75. His dream job ( after the service) was to be a diesel mechanic and he did it for 22 years. I watched him as he would trouble shoot an engine. He'd walk up and touch the block as it was running, he'd listen, he'd turn around and tell you what valve or rod in what cylinder was shot. The man was a God, and I was ten.

He learned it from his dad. I learned it from mine. It gave me passion. It wasn't diesel, it was industrial. I worked the mines, mills, extrusion, manufacturing.

Yea the pay wasn't the best, (above average) I could survive and give my family what they needed and sometimes what they wanted, but what made it a great career is the passion that was passed for finding and fixing. I really like what I do.

The last job before I wound up here was a contract to refit a poultry processing plant so they could pass a BRC ( British Retail Consortium)

I discussed this with my wife before I took the job. I had 98 days before the inspection. I worked every one of them, 12 and 14 hour days. It came down to the last day, and they past, and I got a very decent bonus. I worked three more weeks and found this job, Now my passion creates.

I chose this career for a reason. I like troubleshooting, just not on a Creeper. I worked for the money no doubt, but when I was a** deep in whatever I was working at the time, It wasn't about the money, it was my passion. ( I don't eat chicken any more either)

If they can't tolerate it or their parents didn't pass it on to them, there isn't enough money. Even if there is, their not going to do a very good job.

In order to be good at this job (or any job), as my dad would say, " Ya gotta Wanna".

Otherwise....................movin on..
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Old October 9th, 2017, 11:12 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by John Morris View Post
My father retired from service in 75. His dream job ( after the service) was to be a diesel mechanic and he did it for 22 years. I watched him as he would trouble shoot an engine. He'd walk up and touch the block as it was running, he'd listen, he'd turn around and tell you what valve or rod in what cylinder was shot. The man was a God, and I was ten.

He learned it from his dad. I learned it from mine. It gave me passion. It wasn't diesel, it was industrial. I worked the mines, mills, extrusion, manufacturing.

Yea the pay wasn't the best, (above average) I could survive and give my family what they needed and sometimes what they wanted, but what made it a great career is the passion that was passed for finding and fixing. I really like what I do.

The last job before I wound up here was a contract to refit a poultry processing plant so they could pass a BRC ( British Retail Consortium)

I discussed this with my wife before I took the job. I had 98 days before the inspection. I worked every one of them, 12 and 14 hour days. It came down to the last day, and they past, and I got a very decent bonus. I worked three more weeks and found this job, Now my passion creates.

I chose this career for a reason. I like troubleshooting, just not on a Creeper. I worked for the money no doubt, but when I was a** deep in whatever I was working at the time, It wasn't about the money, it was my passion. ( I don't eat chicken any more either)

If they can't tolerate it or their parents didn't pass it on to them, there isn't enough money. Even if there is, their not going to do a very good job.

In order to be good at this job (or any job), as my dad would say, " Ya gotta Wanna".

Otherwise....................movin on..
What a great way to.put it. It is true. And I am passionate about my career as well.

Ani did learn it ftom.my dad. And to a lesser extent I learned a bunch from my mom as well.

Now i have my own son. He is 9 next week and I try to teach him as much as I can. I just hope I can teach my son half as much as my dad taught me...
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Old October 9th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #36
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Supply, Demand, Incentives, and more

As with every problem in life, I doubt there is only one major factor in the observed shortage. I know a guy here in SE Michigan having trouble finding an industrial maintenance job.
He has spent time as a printing press installer/mechanic, some time in a steel mill, a lifetime in repair of all sorts, trained in printreading, knows how to wire and bend conduit, definitely one of those fix-anything types. Super high mechanical aptitude. Even competent in programming logic. I see some jobs closed off to him because of lack of credentials (can weld and wire and plumb but never had a journeyman's card), but that shouldn't make a huge difference in availability. Nor should his age be much of a factor to any company using their brain (he is one generation more advanced than I - and won't be retiring soon).

So, all that to say... Is it a perception, or a reality? Skills gap? Are company expectations out of line with the market? Is typical pay really as poor as some here have mentioned? How do we differentiate the anecdotal from the total picture?
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Old October 9th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #37
James Mcquade
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I agree with you all.

here's my career.
I started driving a tractor at age 9, grandpa did the mechanic work.
went to a university and got a degree in Engineering Technology - Electrical.
when I left, I was laughed at by almost everyone when I stated I was going into industrial maintenance (local job). I said companies wanted engineers with a maintenance background, didn't mind getting dirty, mechanically inclined, and knew pneumatics and hydraulics. they aren't laughing now.

I learned early on what work was and its served me well.
I worry that todays school aren't teaching, they have on line classes.
no teacher involvement. no real life discussion and interaction.

james
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Old October 9th, 2017, 12:57 PM   #38
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I haven't really had any success this year. I've hired 6-7 guys and still have the same positions open cause they don't work out. Just had a guy quit last week, after only working a week. "Top of his class" according to his tech school instructor. He decided this line of work wasn't for him. You would think he would have figured that out during his 2 years of tech school... Then you have ones can't show up on time, or not at all, and they point out. Guys that get mad they have to work overtime (this is in the job posting and discussed in the interview) and quit, or guys that just can't live up to their resume (i.e. 5+ years experience, but can't wire up a starter). So, I think John Morris is spot on; they just don't have the passion.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 02:35 PM   #39
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I haven't really had any success this year. I've hired 6-7 guys and still have the same positions open cause they don't work out. Just had a guy quit last week, after only working a week. "Top of his class" according to his tech school instructor. He decided this line of work wasn't for him. You would think he would have figured that out during his 2 years of tech school... Then you have ones can't show up on time, or not at all, and they point out. Guys that get mad they have to work overtime (this is in the job posting and discussed in the interview) and quit, or guys that just can't live up to their resume (i.e. 5+ years experience, but can't wire up a starter). So, I think John Morris is spot on; they just don't have the passion.
Do you pay overtime or is it just overtime with no return?

Why don't you run an internship style thing for the guys in the school, and train them up while in school?
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Old October 9th, 2017, 02:40 PM   #40
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Do you pay overtime or is it just overtime with no return?

Why don't you run an internship style thing for the guys in the school, and train them up while in school?
We pay overtime, 1.5x, Sundays are 2x.


I've considered that, not sure how to get started with it.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 02:54 PM   #41
John Morris
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I've considered that, not sure how to get started with it.
Make contact with the counselors at the tech school or local college. If the curriculum allows they will show you how to set it up.

If not you can solicit on your own with local paper, or post board on campus.

We do an "at-will" contract-to-hire. 60-90 days.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 03:35 PM   #42
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Mfg day is a great service. Wherever I taught I tried to bring kids into the lab so they could see for themselves. I also had a night where adult students could bring their kids in and see what mom or dad do at work.
Keep up that good work..
I agree, I like seeing high schools ordering my trainers... I wish I had it when I was young, but I was lucky... I grew up in central CA and our high was far above the rest, we had a full machine shop with a working foundry and our agricultural mechanics shop was so good they built a orchard sprayer (took a couple years) and entered it into our fair... they disqualified it and said we bought it and could not of made it, they did a great job on it. We also had a top notch automotive shop, I think we need to get back to that kind of teaching our kids

We need more higher level teaching in lower level schools and MFG Day is one way to get them interested

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Morris
Make contact with the counselors at the tech school or local college.
rankhornjp, I hired one out of highschool, well he started his last year and worked great, he is now in the Navy on a sub out of Washington state... I told him once he got out I would hire him back, it took a lot of time to keep him straight but he was a good kid and wanted to do good, I have not found another yet but I dont have the time now to teach someone that much, I just called the high school principal
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Old October 9th, 2017, 05:40 PM   #43
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Years ago when I was a Maintenance Engineer, we lost a good guy for the sake of 2 per hour! Yes 2 per hour!
I have to smile at this. I remember having the conversation with my journeyman "back in the day", that so and so had left for $.25/hr. He laughed and told me that back in his day, they would drag-up (quit) for a nickel an hour.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:05 PM   #44
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It just seems like the "Baby Boomer" generation doesn't have a desire to mentor , coach , or challenge the younger generation.
Not all of us...

This is Steph finishing up her Harlequin ZX Spectrum clone that she built.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q29...ature=youtu.be

She also helped out in the recapping of my Speccy +2 and +3, and swapping out the +3's keyboard for the +2's (which was the nicer of the two). She considers the +3 hers now...
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #45
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I don't think of tasks as something "beneath me", but rather something that I didn't serve four years in the apprenticeship for.

I didn't put up with minimum wage for the first 2 years, cr*p from journeymen all-day-long, freezing my backside off in Colorado in the winter, injuries, etc., to become a handyman.

Why?, because I *am* passionate about what I do. But I'm equally passionate about what I don't do.

What I find is odd, is that companies want the guys who are experienced, and passionate about what they do, pay them less than what they would make elsewhere, add everything *including* the kitchen sink in the job description, and then scratch their heads when they leave because they found a better gig that doesn't involve unstopping toilets. Weird, right?
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