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Old October 9th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #46
OkiePC
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It's not their fault, but there is no comparison between the work ethic of the younger generation or two and ours. It's not their fault that free range parenting has gone out of style. It's not their fault they can't be sent outside to find something to do on their own as toddlers...

It's not their fault that when they were kids, you couldn't just band together a group of eight year olds with hand saws and hammers and have them run off to go build a tree house on some random property with scraps they literally stole from a nearby home construction site on a Saturday morning. When was the last time you saw a gang of pre-teens walking down the street carrying lumber and hand tools, completely ignored by all the adults?

It ain't their fault they can't tell a box end wrench from a pair of pliers by the age of six. It ain't their fault that mandatory knowledge no longer includes changing bike tubes, building fort furniture and bike ramps, doing wheelies on your Huffy for 3 blocks. It ain't their fault we have more than 3 channels on TV and less than five daily hours of dirty, heart pounding, bloody, sweaty laughter and tears.

No the kids can't come close to comprehending the lifestyle that made us what we are, but they're not to blame. And it wasn't some small number...more than 90 percent of the kids I grew up with played hard all day every single day outside, running amok, with their minds and their hands turning and churning non-stop. Everybody was out there. And at least half of us had shop class in grade school or junior high at the latest.

This might hurt some feelings but it is reality. This was before home box office, when the only handheld 'lectric game was Coleco electronic quaterback, and before childhood obesity was a "thing". We were too darn busy to get fat. We were too hyperactive to get addicted to staring at any single gadget. It isn't fair to expect modern young adults to be able to work half as hard as us 50-somethings.

As for your value in the workplace...In the maintenance field, you will always be nothing more than a necessary evil. You contribute nothing unless something is broken. It's your fault that it broke down, and it is your fault that it is taking you too long to get it running again. I know that is not the truth, but that is how it will always be viewed. Good maintenance is really much more than waiting for things to break, but even your precious p.m. program is money “they” feel is wasted. Life's not fair. Deal with it.

If you want to be paid what you're worth, work harder than everyone else in your entire company. All day, every day, work harder than everyone else around you. And by work harder, I really mean be more productive. Be more creative. Make the biggest dent in the numbers that makes it easy for "them" to see your value. Apply for a new job every year whether or not you accept it. Don't make them think you aren't loyal, don't brag about it, just make sure the right "leaker" finds out you have "an appointment" and sees an envelope in your pocket with the word resume on it.

Ask for more money or other compensation after you let “them” know that you know --- what you're really worth. If they say no, or even “hell no”, what was it that you lost by pushing for more? A few minutes of your time, but you have raised the eyebrows of those who will see your ambition and either send you off to bigger and better things or capitalize on your aggression. But before all that, do an assessment of yourself. Judge yourself against the competition. Be brutally honest with yourself about what you are worth. Are you another dime among a dozen?

This older generations of mean and rough and tough old bastages will work circles around you whipper snappers for another decade or so then we're going to suddenly up and vanish. The next group of technicians will be smaller and therefore more valuable than we were per capita. So be ready to get paid. Get smarter, work harder and go get what's out there to be taken because the competition is really very weak.

I could rant on for another half hour, but I have to sleep four hours so I can work sixteen tomorrow, and the next day, and the day after that.

pIeAcE!
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Last edited by OkiePC; October 9th, 2017 at 10:39 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 10:33 PM   #47
thumperbs
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Iím 36 years old and having the time of my life within the industry but the God honest truth is I had no idea what a PLC was 5 years ago.

I never was an entitled little snot. I grew up poor and wound even more poor as an adult. I clawed through my twenties with labor jobs before going back to school at the ripe old age of 31. I wanted to work with electricity was all I knew, so I went after a two year degree in electronics at my local cc. Within two weeks of school I learned what a PLC was and Iíve been hooked ever since. I graduated top of my class and the whole time I just kind of felt that things were too easy through school.

After a few years in industry now, I donít classify things as easy anymore however I do understand now that things click with me because of pride and passion. I donít know all the answers but Iíll bend over backwards to find and learn where I need to go.

To side with comments from others, I feel like I was robbed by the education system. Where was this career my whole life? I feel like Iím home now and never knew what is was until my 30ís? Couple this with my loss of contribution to society through taxes. I have effectively tripled my salary over the last few years and still I ask myself all the time, why isnít this talked about more?
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Old October 9th, 2017, 11:38 PM   #48
Paully's5.0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkiePC View Post
As for your value in the workplace...In the maintenance field, you will always be nothing more than a necessary evil. You contribute nothing unless something is broken. It's your fault that it broke down, and it is your fault that it is taking you too long to get it running again. I know that is not the truth, but that is how it will always be viewed.
This is ultimately the issue. It's not the "kids" that people are ranting about, or the work ethic differences. I understand they exist but why the hell would someone jump into the maintenance field, get treated like this and be expected to be a hard worker and become a 'company man' when companies have shown you are nothing but a number and will get let go without much thought? Not to mention that the long-term perks like PENSIONS are dead! So why would kids today even think of doing this daily grind of maintenance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OkiePC View Post
If you want to be paid what you're worth, work harder than everyone else in your entire company.
Those with the drive to do this certainly will jump quick from the maintenance field per the previous point. Work ethic still exists, but those with drive will get better opportunity and move on. Those without drive will see they can probably make the same amount of money working another job or two doing less work for about the same pay. So why would anyone be jumping at the maintenance roles?

If you have a good work ethic, and need stability, good earning potential then you better just go into the trades if higher-education din't work out.

Insurance costs are up and retirement benefits are down. There is not a long-term retention benefit that sets any company apart from another. So working in manufacturing in general isn't exactly a beacon of prosperity that it once was.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 02:28 AM   #49
mamezcua8201
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That is how it is here at my job im an automation tech but also a welder, plumber, janitor, bearing changer lol I took the position to further my career and get more involved in PLCs and yet there is no training im with no one experienced so I do learn what I can on my own
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Old October 10th, 2017, 03:27 AM   #50
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Regarding the unclogging of toilets and kitchen sinks, this is where you should put your foot down. It is not about you being too sensitive to do it, it is about your employer not showing you the respect that you deserve.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 03:49 AM   #51
Saffa
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I don't see anything disrespectful about being asked to do menial tasks occasionally. I respect the guy that cleans the office as much as I respect the CEO (actually maybe even the cleaner a bit more...).

I will clean toilets if I have to, and have done so several times to prove a point (I really hate the "that's not my job" attitude that many plant operators have to general cleanliness).

But in reality paying someone $45 an hour to clean toilets makes little sense. Every hour I'm doing something like that is an hour I'm not earning the company money.

Of course if the company is being paid $150 an hour for me to be standing around on a site we're responsible for whilst waiting for a client to turn up, I might as well pick up a broom instead of standing there with my up my

Do whatever you're asked to to do, but hopefully your manager has enough sense to ask you to do things that are most productive for you to be doing.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 04:28 AM   #52
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I repeat what I said.
It is not about you being too sensitive to do menial jobs.
It is about your manager not respecting you.
Wether it is because he thinks you dont have enough to do, or because he finds such tasks below anyone else in the company but you, it does not matter.
You can always offer to help with menial tasks if the need arises, but is is not your official job.
If you have nothing particular to do at a certain time, then take the time off (to compnesate for when you worked 48 hours non-stop in a weekend to overhaul a machine), or fix your tools so they ar ein tip-top shape, or read some manuals, or do something else that is relevant to your job.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 04:38 AM   #53
PLC Pie Guy
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""""(OKIEPC)
It ain't their fault they can't tell a box end wrench from a pair of pliers by the age of six. It ain't their fault that mandatory knowledge no longer includes changing bike tubes, """"""""

I love this. As the father of a 5 year old I am torn daily by the decision to allow him on an electronic device. I use them as a tool. I do not have a facebook account, nor any other social media. I encourage him daily to get off the couch and go play outside or work with me in the garage, and I can tell you with certainty, he KNOWS the difference between a boxed end wrench and an open end wrench and knows how to take the bolts off of anything I ask him to. He loves being outside and doing just about anything... BUT..........
Within the next 2 years he will be required to carry an IPAD to school for his class work. This rubs me both ways. Part of me says teach him every day all I can about programming and computers but part of me says, teach him what my Grampie taught me.... "Had nothing to do with no old computer junk, that stuff will ruin your eyes."'' He would say, but I believe him. I don't want my child to be exposed to all the bull **** that's on the internet. I want him to learn technology as a tool, to make a living with, same as a shovel or a chainsaw. I know most of the parents of the children my kid goes to school with and not all, but most are living zombies stuck in their cell phones, even the kids have them, in primary. Learning what they see from mom and dad who don't even speak, just stare at their hands. It makes me sick!

Perhaps this went off course but, it starts young. kids are smart and will learn whatever we teach. But what do we teach? What I'm saying is that this is a scary time in the world to be raising a child and I'm not sure if I should be teaching technology for a child to become smart in the electronics world or do I teach hard work, manual labor and a knowledge of how to live in a broken world where one will need these skills to survive and any past experience in APPS and emojis will be useless. I feel lucky enough to be educated in technology but raised in hard work and getting dirty. I want him to be prepared for anything but from what I see, school is only going to tech him half. The other half is up to the parents!
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Old October 10th, 2017, 08:55 AM   #54
James Mcquade
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My oldest boy is in votech school for IT study and I got him an old desktop from someone that was going to throw it away.

they want him to take a pc apart and put it back together.
he has a teacher who wanders everywhere, just a book, and on videos on how.
he wants to do good, but how can kids learn like this?
what happened to teacher interaction, examples, homework?

james
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Old October 10th, 2017, 08:59 AM   #55
VAN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffa View Post
I don't see anything disrespectful about being asked to do menial tasks occasionally. I respect the guy that cleans the office as much as I respect the CEO (actually maybe even the cleaner a bit more...).

I will clean toilets if I have to, and have done so several times to prove a point (I really hate the "that's not my job" attitude that many plant operators have to general cleanliness).

But in reality paying someone $45 an hour to clean toilets makes little sense. Every hour I'm doing something like that is an hour I'm not earning the company money.
It becomes a problem when you do it during overtime, and in the states a lot of places are unpaid overtime.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 09:17 AM   #56
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Schools are incentivized to pass students, not to teach them. Everyone is more concerned with the appearance of success than actual success, and god forbid you actually fail a student and make them try harder.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #57
cardosocea
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It becomes a problem when you do it during overtime, and in the states a lot of places are unpaid overtime.
Why would you accept to get into a job with unpaid overtime?

Maybe it's my experience, but I just turn down offers if I even get a whiff of pressure to, essentially, work for free.

I've had this in the past where the hiring manager said that they don't like people looking at the clock... followed by there is no overtime to be paid ever. I just told him that it wouldn't be a problem as I would set an alarm to be sure I didn't have to be looking at my watch.

I can understand that employers will always try to get away with it... but it's our job to put the foot down and not going forward with it, or basically jump the price per hour to compensate for any call you may get.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 10:58 AM   #58
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So, is this the newest ranting thread? This is not a rant but I do feel some of the perspectives are off the mark.

From what I seen, demographic trend is the main driver for what we are seeing. For example, my current place of work is about 4500 employees, total. Only a small part of the 4500 is technical. HR did an assessment and found 40% of the employees can due to retire in the next decade, 40% got less than 5 yearsí experience, and finally, my generation in the middle account for 20%.

Also, I have not seen any problem getting good people, AS LONG AS YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT. The average program manager working for Amazon or Microsoft near me make about $120k+. A control guys thatís good with control programming typically make less than that, even in high cost area like where I am.

Finally, I always have a problem seeing people dissing a good liberal-art education which I was also guilty of in my younger days. As I get older and my interests expand away from my core competency, I notice more and more the lack of critical thinking skills. A good liberal-art education is supposed to provide on with the basic understanding of history, logic, science, and critical thinking skill. With the internet, the problem is getting worse with a lot of people trapped in their own echo chamber and that include some of the most respect control people I know. Yes, you need to specialize in a few choice things in life but you also need the core thinking skill to assess facts and apply logic to things outside your core area.

Lastly, Iíll leave you with this quote:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
ó Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love[1][2]
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:03 PM   #59
a062549
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by OkiePC View Post
It's not their fault, but there is no comparison between the work ethic of the younger generation or two and ours. It's not their fault that free range parenting has gone out of style. It's not their fault they can't be sent outside to find something to do on their own as toddlers...

It's not their fault that when they were kids, you couldn't just band together a group of eight year olds with hand saws and hammers and have them run off to go build a tree house on some random property with scraps they literally stole from a nearby home construction site on a Saturday morning. When was the last time you saw a gang of pre-teens walking down the street carrying lumber and hand tools, completely ignored by all the adults?

It ain't their fault they can't tell a box end wrench from a pair of pliers by the age of six. It ain't their fault that mandatory knowledge no longer includes changing bike tubes, building fort furniture and bike ramps, doing wheelies on your Huffy for 3 blocks. It ain't their fault we have more than 3 channels on TV and less than five daily hours of dirty, heart pounding, bloody, sweaty laughter and tears.

No the kids can't come close to comprehending the lifestyle that made us what we are, but they're not to blame. And it wasn't some small number...more than 90 percent of the kids I grew up with played hard all day every single day outside, running amok, with their minds and their hands turning and churning non-stop. Everybody was out there. And at least half of us had shop class in grade school or junior high at the latest.

This might hurt some feelings but it is reality. This was before home box office, when the only handheld 'lectric game was Coleco electronic quaterback, and before childhood obesity was a "thing". We were too darn busy to get fat. We were too hyperactive to get addicted to staring at any single gadget. It isn't fair to expect modern young adults to be able to work half as hard as us 50-somethings.

As for your value in the workplace...In the maintenance field, you will always be nothing more than a necessary evil. You contribute nothing unless something is broken. It's your fault that it broke down, and it is your fault that it is taking you too long to get it running again. I know that is not the truth, but that is how it will always be viewed. Good maintenance is really much more than waiting for things to break, but even your precious p.m. program is money ďtheyĒ feel is wasted. Life's not fair. Deal with it.

If you want to be paid what you're worth, work harder than everyone else in your entire company. All day, every day, work harder than everyone else around you. And by work harder, I really mean be more productive. Be more creative. Make the biggest dent in the numbers that makes it easy for "them" to see your value. Apply for a new job every year whether or not you accept it. Don't make them think you aren't loyal, don't brag about it, just make sure the right "leaker" finds out you have "an appointment" and sees an envelope in your pocket with the word resume on it.

Ask for more money or other compensation after you let ďthemĒ know that you know --- what you're really worth. If they say no, or even ďhell noĒ, what was it that you lost by pushing for more? A few minutes of your time, but you have raised the eyebrows of those who will see your ambition and either send you off to bigger and better things or capitalize on your aggression. But before all that, do an assessment of yourself. Judge yourself against the competition. Be brutally honest with yourself about what you are worth. Are you another dime among a dozen?

This older generations of mean and rough and tough old bastages will work circles around you whipper snappers for another decade or so then we're going to suddenly up and vanish. The next group of technicians will be smaller and therefore more valuable than we were per capita. So be ready to get paid. Get smarter, work harder and go get what's out there to be taken because the competition is really very weak.

I could rant on for another half hour, but I have to sleep four hours so I can work sixteen tomorrow, and the next day, and the day after that.

pIeAcE!
Sweet...
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Old October 10th, 2017, 03:19 PM   #60
PLCnovice61
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I wonder who are the useless parents and grand parents that allowed this next generation of lazy kids, oh l forgot it's all you people ranting about the lazy generation.
You reap what you sow.
I can be righteous as l have no children and have been retired for 4 years from the age of 53, why are you guys out there banking money when you could be enjoying doing what you really love, if you say that is PLC programming it might be a good time to have a hard look at yourself.
As the saying goes, no one has every heard a person on there death bed say "l wish l spent more time at work"
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