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Old October 10th, 2017, 04:00 PM   #61
LoganB
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Originally Posted by PLCnovice61 View Post
I wonder who are the useless parents and grand parents that allowed this next generation of lazy kids, oh l forgot it's all you people ranting about the lazy generation.
You reap what you sow.
I'm a millennial, and I only agree with this to a point. You can only blame your parents for your own mistakes for so long. At some point, you have to look around and realize that your choices are your own.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 04:21 PM   #62
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You can high-horse it all you like, it still wont change the fact there is a lack of new blood coming through.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 08:08 PM   #63
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You can only blame your parents for your own mistakes for so long. At some point, you have to look around and realize that your choices are your own.
Somebody finally "nailed it". !!!!!!!!!
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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:08 AM   #64
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I think the issue is a little more than simple, there are a more than a few things that has changed from the way manufacturing was done in the 50's thru today

1) employers demanding more, now bubba needs to be able to program a PLC, when I started all I did was mechanical, we had electricians, millwrights, programmers, etc ... now the maintenance tech needs to do everything and more

2) me me me attitude is getting worse, a lot (not all) younger people think they should have everything just given to them and not have to pay or work, some think the schools should be free... well then who is going to pay the teachers, if we want the best we need to pay them and give them an incentive to teach the best

3) education needs to evolve, just as equipment changes so does the need for our talents and we need to change our schools and start teaching troubleshooting skills to the people that want to learn and go that route

4) we need to stop the participation trophy in real life... if you earn it you get one, if you did not earn it try harder next time

5) im sure there are many more things that need to change but when it comes down to it... its up to us to make the change

Just a little food for thought....
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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:20 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by geniusintraining View Post
I think the issue is a little more than simple, there are a more than a few things that has changed from the way manufacturing was done in the 50's thru today

1) employers demanding more, now bubba needs to be able to program a PLC, when I started all I did was mechanical, we had electricians, millwrights, programmers, etc ... now the maintenance tech needs to do everything and more
Now that is one that perplexes me. I've seen a job posting looking for all-around techs that can also program a PLC paying as low as $13/hour.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 10:18 AM   #66
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Now that is one that perplexes me. I've seen a job posting looking for all-around techs that can also program a PLC paying as low as $13/hour.
Wonder why their is such a wide range of pay, when I lived in the bay area if you were good tech and master of none then you would be in the low to mid 30's (back in the 90's) here in SC now 20 years later they are in the mid 30's, I can understand the Bay Area to SC but now I would think just about everyone for a good tech should be 30-35 per hour
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Old October 11th, 2017, 10:36 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by geniusintraining View Post
3) education needs to evolve, just as equipment changes so does the need for our talents and we need to change our schools and start teaching troubleshooting skills to the people that want to learn and go that route

4) we need to stop the participation trophy in real life... if you earn it you get one, if you did not earn it try harder next time
To number 3, TOTALLY agree. Our schools are still teaching kids in a format to prepare them primarily for assembly lines and cubicles. Assembly lines are already mostly phased out by robotics and automation, and cubicle jobs are the ones we have way too many people for. I am hearing about high schools that are starting to spend more money on shop and trade classes again, in fact we have a high school class visiting our plant today, so it's changing back. But right now we are paying for the last 20 years of it not being a focus.

To number 4, I totally blame the baby boomers for this. Millenials were raised by boomers, and the "everyone gets a trophy, no one is a failure" attitude was cultivated by our parents. Again, the actions we take are our's to own, but the self-entitled attitude of my generation is definitely not just some random mutation that came out of nowhere.

I'm just glad that I'm seeing signs of some of us learning from our parent's mistakes now. That's all you can really hope for when it comes right down to it.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 11:43 AM   #68
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A lot of times it seems that companies will get away with whatever YOU let them get away with. Overtime on short notice, delaying the pay scale you agreed to before starting, etc. That **** doesn't fly with me. I've been promised the world by too many people, and something always happens, and I think that something is a lot of companies wanting to take every inch they can. I've worked my *** off to get my skill set above a lot of other controls electricians I've seen, in the areas I saw a huge demand for.

I'm a pragmatic guy. Pretty easy going. These are my working conditions. I'm happy to work with you on most of them, especially since I value a work schedule that fits my life, more than I value how much money I take home every month. That's why I choose to drive 3 hours a day to get to and from my current job. I don't WANT to work, and I'm not ashamed of saying it. I want to travel, and wake up when I see fit. Does that mean I'm lazy?

As was said earlier, no one is going to be on their death bed wishing they had spent more time at work. But, since I do have to be here, I'm going to spend that time working my tail off, creating indisputable value, and looking at the clock as little as possible until it's time to go home. If that's not good enough, here's the list of standing job offers I have.

The fortunate thing, is I picked a trade that is in HUGE demand, and I have a lot of opportunities. The unfortunate thing, is that I picked a trade that is in HUGE demand, and I have a lot of opportunities.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 11:49 AM   #69
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Part of it is a lack of focus on education choices as well. I live in the SF Bay Area and around here, there are ZERO options for technical training. You can get an EE degree from Cal State San Jose, Cal Berkeley or if your parents are filthy rich, Stanford. But there are no options for a 2 year technical degree or certificate program that will accommodate someone who wants training in every day machine controls etc. There are a couple of programs in the Central Valley, but they constantly struggle with funding and interest levels. Yet EVERY one of their graduates gets a job in one of the many food production plants in the valley, and they are $50-75K/yr jobs. The problem is, the Silicon Valley allure of BIG money is draining away anyone with a decent brain. Our company struggles to keep people at $100k+, because they can commute down to SV and get $300k, and we can't afford to match it. We are losing one of the best motion control guys I've ever worked with at the end of this month, he's going to Apple for $350k, as a facilities engineer... Is it what he wants to do? No, but how can he pass that up?
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Old October 11th, 2017, 12:23 PM   #70
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I'm a millennial, and I only agree with this to a point. You can only blame your parents for your own mistakes for so long. At some point, you have to look around and realize that your choices are your own.
I am also a millennial(although I hate the association quite frankly) and I agree with this. Digging out is on you, if you got some bad advice (even from your parents) lesson learned, MOVE ON.

Counterpoint: I think a lot of the entitlement came from being pushed towards college. I remember being indoctrinated with the idea that "If you just get a college degree your life will be awesome!" which I think has largely been disproven at this point.

I think a lot of millennials are still dealing with the harsh reality on this matter. Hundreds of thousands in college tuition probably isn't going to make you determined, hard working, or in a lot of cases, even particularly valuable.

I understand that education is important, and it has taught me a lot of basic things. At the same time I have taught myself way more through struggle and consulting others who have specific knowledge.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 12:45 PM   #71
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I put myself through college working maintenance but I have done electrical work and a little of everything else since I was pre teen working as a helper for summer and weekend jobs. I did't come from much and liked being able to put money in my pocket even as a kid.

From my view if you can do everything these companies are asking for your not that far off from being a really great engineer or programmer etc. You have the knack in my terms. So why not go get your degree and make more money have better hours a cleaner job, etc.

Companies want maintenance techs to have mechanical skills, be an electrician be a plumber be a carpenter be a PLC programmer be a controls and projects engineer and they want to pay them $23.00? or lower.

Those same people can take those same skills and get a degree to go with them and make a 100K plus anywhere so why would those that have the knack stay in the maintenance lane there is just no incentive to do so IMHO.

The people they do have or can get that would likely stay with it the companies don't want to invest in them such as additional school and training classes and don't want to pay them on the scale that they should.

I don't see much changing anytime soon on either end but when all the old guard is gone it's going to be a serious storm because the handful of young techs that are really good will be picked up by the large companies that will scale to $35-$50 dollars an hour and beyond to get the people they need.

The small companies that can't pay top dollar are going to be in a world of hurt. Maybe then they will how much good maintenance was a value add piece of the puzzle.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 03:40 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by dwoodlock View Post
I am also a millennial(although I hate the association quite frankly) and I agree with this. Digging out is on you, if you got some bad advice (even from your parents) lesson learned, MOVE ON.

Counterpoint: I think a lot of the entitlement came from being pushed towards college. I remember being indoctrinated with the idea that "If you just get a college degree your life will be awesome!" which I think has largely been disproven at this point.

I think a lot of millennials are still dealing with the harsh reality on this matter. Hundreds of thousands in college tuition probably isn't going to make you determined, hard working, or in a lot of cases, even particularly valuable.

I understand that education is important, and it has taught me a lot of basic things. At the same time I have taught myself way more through struggle and consulting others who have specific knowledge.
+1

I also hate admitting I'm a millennial. I barely made it being born in 87, but I still have to bear the title
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Old October 11th, 2017, 04:13 PM   #73
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A larger European power company wanted to hire the following from the company I'm working for:

A power engineer
An automation engineer
An instrumentation engineer
A process engineer
Someone really good with SAP software

They also thought this would be one and the same person!
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Old October 11th, 2017, 07:50 PM   #74
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This is a very good conversation . Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences .
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Old October 12th, 2017, 02:07 AM   #75
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I repeat what I said.
It is not about you being too sensitive to do menial jobs.
It is about your manager not respecting you.
I left a job just because of this. I was hired on as an engineer, but when they found out that I knew which end was which on a screwdriver, I did the wiring as well (we were upgrading a Gencor asphalt mixer to become a mobile soil de-contaminator). I was fine with that, and I enjoyed the challenge.

Between the two jobs, it ended up being a 70 hour work week on average, but I was away from home and it beat watching the tube.

But it wasn't long before they started considering me as one of the skilled trades, and not an engineer. What tore it was that they told me that I was going to have to be an operator on the retort. I told them that I was an engineer, and not an operator. They told me that I would do what they told me to do.

I replied, "you're right, but not for long". I was gone by the end of the month.
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