question in electricity

briana banks

Member
Join Date
Jul 2005
Posts
242
Hi All

I am a programmer no an electrician so please be gentle with me...

I have a 3 phases electric line
i have meter that meassures I,U,cos(phi) & P in each phase on the main switch.

each component switch(heaters,chillers,elevators etc.)on that line has an ampermeter on its entrance

The formula to calculate power is P=U*I*cos(phi)*sqrt(3)

I need to calculate the cost of each components on that line.
How do i do that? (P is not constant of course)
can i take the mean value of of U & P of a period of time?

the price list unit is cent/KWh.

thanx
 
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Briana
In order to do what you want you will need to know V and cos(phi) for each individual piece of equipment. For simple heaters this could be estimated fairly accurately as cos(phi) will be unity. For motors there is more of a problem as cos(phi) varies with load and for any elctronically controlled heaters or VFD's estimation is probably not practical. The good news on the last case is that any VFD's will probably allow you to read P directly without calculation. If you have a large/complex mix of loads then you are unlikely to be able to estimate the power consumption accurately.
Andybr
 
Hi

The client is satisfied with taking the cos(phi)
measured on the branch's main line as a parameter for the formula.

how can i calculate the KWh and the cost?.
 
Try using a Fluke 43 power quality analyzer during normal operation ,take a measurement of the kw over a given hour, then you have the kwh, you will have to find out what their cost is from utility, also the is a demand multiplier. There are many professional metering devices out on the market that will do what you are asking on a continuos basis, they also have 4-20ma outputs so you can use as analong input to a control system.
 
Do you mean, to take the mean value of KW over a period of an hour?
The aforementioned formula was given to me by the client.
I use 'satec PM172'for monitoring
 
In order to work this out for yourself it is useful to include the units in your calculation.

Your equation (P=U*I*cos(phi)*sqrt(3)) is going to produce a result which has a unit measure in watts. Watts is defined as Joules/Second. Watts is NOT a measurement of energy, it is a measurement of an energy usage rate. Joules is the primary measurement unit of energy. By measuring the rate over a period of time and then multiplying by that time, we convert the rate, watts, into an energy quantity, Joules. A Joule is a pretty small quantity of energy and so it can produce cubersomly large numbers when metering energy. So by convention we use KWH. Now look at the unit KWH. What does it represent? Lets break it down.

KWH is 1000 Joules/Second * 1 Hours.

The Second unit and the Hours unit are both time units, therefore they will cancel each other out, leaving us with an energy unit. We can rewrite it this way:
1KWH = 1000*Joules/Second * 3600 Seconds.
1KWH = 3,600,000 Joules

Now on to metering. Metering involves totalizing over time. The trick is to find a time slice over which to meter. If the time slice is 1 second then our energy consumption during that time slice can be calculated as Watts * 1/3600 hours. (1 hour has 3600 seconds - But totalizing with 1 second intervals is going to produce a rounding problem - can anyone tell me why?)

If we pick a 3.6 second time interval then energy consumption becomes Watts * .001hours. A 36 second time slice gives us Watts * .01hours.

The trick is in determining the proper time slice. If your load changes frequently, the faster the sampling rate the better the metering.

If you are metering with a stopwatch and a pencil and paper then obviously your sample rate will be somewhat long. There are cases where this is just fine however - such as trying to establish standardized work center rates for allocating manufacturing costs - something which is not recalculated frequently and for which real time results are not necessary.

If you are metering with a PLC, then you can choose a more suitable sampling rate. Metering with a PLC or DAQ system is not a suitable means for billable metering, but for internal use it is often more than sufficient. For the most accruate metering you need to use in instrument designed specifically for metering. These instruments continuously integrate the instantaneous power rate, by both mechanical (like your home power meter) and electronic means.

Try this out: How many KWH does a 100 watt light bulb use if it is on for 1 minute? If you can work that out and get 0.001667 as your answer, then you have what you need to know to solve the bigger problem.
 
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Alaric, what do you charge as a visiting lecturer? I would be interested in having you make some presentations for my AC/DC class. If you are further away from here than 50 miles, you are automatically an expert and will definitely carry more weight with my classes. Good presentation here BTW.
 
Hi

Suppose that 1KWh cost 30 cent.
so i pay 30/3600 = 0.00833 cent per second for each KW
I multiply 0.00833 with the instantaneous 'P'
which is according to the formula =
U(instantaneous)*I(instantaneous)*cosf *sqrt(3)
meassured from the monitoring device each second.

integrating the result of this over a period of time
in which the component consumed power will give me the actual cost
of that component.

Am i doing right?
 
Ok sorry for the mistake...
If 1 KWH = 30 cent
cost = U(instantaneous)*I(instantaneous)*cosf *sqrt(3)*30/3.6=
cent/sec
am i correct?
 
Yes, that is correct.

I suggest using a 15-minute averaging period. The reason is that most electric utilities measure the maximum kW used during each 15 minute period, and bill for (in addition to the base rate) "KW Demand", which is a measure of the largest kW used in a given time period.

I would guess that is the reason your client is interested in what each piece of equipment is doing. S/he probably is trying to figure out how to 'load-shed", or drop the worst-case load in peak kW Demand periods.

You could base your time period on HOW the client is being billed from the utility. Look at the client's power bill for last month, or better still, for a "large" electric user, look at the client's power contract. The power contract will spell out the terms and how the client is billed for each kWH.

The client should have given you the reason why this is being done, and also copies of their power contract or power bill.
 
I want to second Randy's opinion.
Not to embarass Alaric, but I do like to read the replys that he posts.
There are a bunch of you that do a great job of explaining technical items in an easy to understand form.
I can't make a list, because I would forget somebody.
Keep up the good work.
:site:
 
gbradley said:
I want to second Randy's opinion.
Not to embarass Alaric, but I do like to read the replys that he posts.
There are a bunch of you that do a great job of explaining technical items in an easy to understand form.
I can't make a list, because I would forget somebody.
Keep up the good work.
:site:

Im with you on that one 100%
 
I the formula correct?

Hi

for a 3 phases line.
Pavg/sec =(V(rms)*I(instantaneous)*cosf *sqrt(3))/sec

from the meter i get P,I,V on each phase on the main branch

to calculate P on each component,i take the 3 phases mean value of V & cosf
multiplied with instantaneous I measured on the ampermeter
located on the entrance of each component.
 

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