Regenerative drive supplied from a UPS

Thanks for the good advice from all, we will try them (especially getting a signal from the UPS to disable the drive).
Anyway, our drive is a Siemens PM250 (6SL3225-0BE37-5AA0), and it seems a very difficult task to have it send excess power to a braking resistor, as it does not have a braking chopper, and also does not look ready for it.
In worst cases, we might replace it by a PM240 one with an external resistor.
 
It sounds like you are using the UPS for "ride through" until your generator comes on line. If your UPS is the "on line" type, then jraef has the best option, in my opinion. If your UPS is of the "stand by" type, then tragically's advice would be correct & jraef's idea is still a good option.

Assuming your UPS is the stand by type, for the short period of time that the UPS would be on line, while the generator starts up, simply disable the regen of your drive. Most systems that I've worked with the gen set is on line within 30 seconds so disabling the regen for that short time shouldn't pose much of a problem. If it is a problem then the addition of a dynamic brake or a chopper unit may be in order.

If it were me I would not even try to use a regenerative drive is this application. A standard VFD with dynamic braking would simplify the whole thing and eliminate the possibility of damaging a very expensive UPS unit.

You couldn't buy a standby UPS this size if you tried, it will be an online double conversion without a doubt, so it's primary path is the inverter, putting anything back into its output will shut it down at best or damage it at worst.

Good paper here from APC showing the different architectures:

https://www.apc.com/salestools/SADE-5TNM3Y/SADE-5TNM3Y_R7_EN.pdf
 
You have a UPS or a generator?
Are there any drives running on this current system?
I’m curious how the drive would handle a UPS waveform.... THD and such
 
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We have a 500 kva UPS, which is feeding the whole plant (several machines, some are with drives).
This UPS is supplied sometimes from a generator, and other times from the state electricity (depends on the official power cuts).
The drive has an internal filter on its input supply.
 
The PM250 will turn itself off when connected to a high impedance source like a generator or, I imagine, a UPS. That drive is not a full “Active Front End” drive, it is a cheaper half-baked version called a “Fundamental Front End” or FFE design that uses fewer components to save cost. The drawback is, it can’t work on a high impedance source. It warns you of that in the manual... but who reads those things!

Replace it with a PM240 and use a braking resistor system.
 
You couldn't buy a standby UPS this size if you tried, it will be an online double conversion without a doubt, so it's primary path is the inverter, putting anything back into its output will shut it down at best or damage it at worst.

Good paper here from APC showing the different architectures:

https://www.apc.com/salestools/SADE-5TNM3Y/SADE-5TNM3Y_R7_EN.pdf

Thanks for the info tragially!

I obviously am not familiar with this unit or its size, so I was speaking from my somewhat dated experience of UPS systems. I worked on quite a few in the mid to late eighties while in the USAF.
 
You mean it will not harm the UPS, in case of a deceleration of the drive, with no other load ready to take the sent back current?
Not harm the UPS? I suppose not, because as I have experienced it, the PM250 will just turn itself off when it detects the high impedance source, so the drive will not be operating. I found out the hard way that this is what they do. It turned out that Siemens knew all along and didn't tell me when their salesman was convincing me to use it, then pointed out where it was buried in the manual in cryptic terms.
 
Not harm the UPS? I suppose not, because as I have experienced it, the PM250 will just turn itself off when it detects the high impedance source, so the drive will not be operating. I found out the hard way that this is what they do. It turned out that Siemens knew all along and didn't tell me when their salesman was convincing me to use it, then pointed out where it was buried in the "manual" in cryptic terms.

kindly, do you know which manual talks about this? because our customer is asking for it!
 
Re. High Impedance Source

"Not harm the UPS? I suppose not, because as I have experienced it, the PM250 will just turn itself off when it detects the high impedance source, so the drive will not be operating. I found out the hard way that this is what they do. It turned out that Siemens knew all along and didn't tell me when their salesman was convincing me to use it, then pointed out where it was buried in the manual in cryptic terms."

A small clarification here. It can harm any UPS. Its all dependent on the UPS control system and hardware design. The regenerative VSD/VFD Drive when braking becomes an energy source on the UPS output bus. If the other loads on the UPS output bus are not capable of absorbing the energy, the only other path is backwards through the UPS Inverter IGBT flyback diodes to the DC bus. This reverse energy then pushes the UPS DC bus voltage up to potentially damaging levels.

Generally speaking, the ratio of regenerative loads to steady state loads on the UPS output bus needs to be ~40%:60% respectively. If not, there will be issues, including shutdown or potential damage to the UPS. This is true of all static UPS topologies.

The other option is to put passive braking on enough drives to get the reverse energy down to a level that the other steady state loads can absorb.

Its very similar to a engine-generator control system response to leading power factor loads, e.g., the engine-generator shuts down to protect itself from damage. In fact engine-generators respond to reverse energy in almost an identical fashion.

I would recommend a 7x24 Power Quality monitoring of the SYPX UPS output bus voltage and current with the unit in static bypass. If power fails while its in static bypass it will transfer to battery mode to protect the loads and then go back to normal mode. That way you have some hard data to work with in making decisions.

The SYPX250/500K UPS's also have waveform event capture capability, e.g., to capture events like this, so you should already have output bus voltage and current waveforms for any shutdown. Your FSR can download the logs with the waveform files and forward them to me for analysis.

If you choose to do a PQ study. Whatever PQ Monitor you use has to be able to capture and zoom in on any transient event, e.g., 10ms or less. I recommend RMS Monitoring Services if you don't have a preferred vendor. Keep in mind PQ histograms are averaged values based on the sampling time setting. Therefore, the PQ monitor must be capable of transient event capture too. I would set the current setting @ the UPS output ratings. The RMS Cx Monitors capture all events once they are properly configured for the power system voltage & frequency. No, I don't work for RMS Monitoring Services, I work for Schneider Electric. You can find me on Linkedin.
🍺
 
Unfortunately, the system is already installed and running, since one month. So, it will be very difficult to replace the PM250.
But, we are still looking for some answers, from Siemens, about the below, as Jraef has experienced the drive with a ups before, and did not have any problems.
“ as I have experienced it, the PM250 will just turn itself off when it detects the high impedance source, so the drive will not be operating... It turned out that Siemens knew all along ,..., then pointed out where it was in the manual ... “
 

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