OT: WAY OT... How small we are

One could argue that a "creator" possibly intervened to ignite the first life form on the planet, however there are a great deal of facts that would have to be explained away that would not well support a "designer" using a common theme so to speak to have created multiple species simultaneously.

You would first have to explain away the fact that all organisms harbor a lot of "junk" DNA that has long ago ceased to express. Left over baggage from times past.

You would have to explain away why a creator would design things with flaws or inferior traits. A great example of this is the eye. For one, the human eye from a bio-mechanical perspective is very poorly designed. The receptors are facing the wrong way, upside down, and the way the ocular nerve is connected creates a large blind spot that is only filtered out by our brains. A common flaw throughout all vertebrates. You would have to explain why there are over 50 genetically distinct ocular strains across various species branches, some performing much better than others in regards to focus, ability to sense color, ability to sense a broader light spectrum, etc.

You would have to explain away the genetic breadcrumbs laid down in our DNA that outlined the branches of the phylogenetic tree that record the trail of speciation.

You would have to explain away how there is very little correlation between the size and complexity of a species DNA sequence and the actual observed sophistication of the species. A Japanese flower Paris japonica has 49 billion base pairs (roughly 50 times the size of the human genome).

You would have to explain why all life on this planet only uses left handed amino acids to build proteins.

You would have to explain away evolution in general, which is demonstrated in our DNA, the fossil record, radiometric dating in conjunction with plate tectonics and geological stratification. The mechanism that forms our most fundamental understanding of biochemistry and the processes of organic life, which without that understanding our current technical advances in bio-engineering and medicine would not even be possible.

It all boils down to Occam s Razor really.

We can speculate all day whether we were "seeded" by aliens, but lets face it, all that does is shift the problem. Something would have had to occur for their start at some place and some time. It's a fun idea to entertain. Certainly plausible, but there is no compelling reason to believe it over other theories outside of personal preference.

As far as cave paintings of aliens, I've seen many. The problem with those is the same with interpreting any piece of art from any time. You tend to to see what you are looking for. Some might see helmets. Others might see a tribal headdress or mask. Where one imagines a spaceship, another might see only a canoe. Makes for good fodder for science fictions novels, but not compelling evidence that we are being visited.
Very interesting, however, I need not explain anything. Only someone without faith to believe that One with the wherewithal to "create" does exist may need those explanations. (y)

As to cave paintings of aliens, I find great humor in speculating on what some future civilization who had no information about us would say if they ever uncovered one of our landfills. :ROFLMAO:
 
One could argue that a "creator" possibly intervened to ignite the first life form on the planet, however there are a great deal of facts that would have to be explained away that would not well support a "designer" using a common theme so to speak to have created multiple species simultaneously.

You would first have to explain away the fact that all organisms harbor a lot of "junk" DNA that has long ago ceased to express. Left over baggage from times past.

You would have to explain away why a creator would design things with flaws or inferior traits. A great example of this is the eye. For one, the human eye from a bio-mechanical perspective is very poorly designed. The receptors are facing the wrong way, upside down, and the way the ocular nerve is connected creates a large blind spot that is only filtered out by our brains. A common flaw throughout all vertebrates. You would have to explain why there are over 50 genetically distinct ocular strains across various species branches, some performing much better than others in regards to focus, ability to sense color, ability to sense a broader light spectrum, etc.

You would have to explain away the genetic breadcrumbs laid down in our DNA that outlined the branches of the phylogenetic tree that record the trail of speciation.

You would have to explain away how there is very little correlation between the size and complexity of a species DNA sequence and the actual observed sophistication of the species. A Japanese flower Paris japonica has 49 billion base pairs (roughly 50 times the size of the human genome).

You would have to explain why all life on this planet only uses left handed amino acids to build proteins.

You would have to explain away evolution in general, which is demonstrated in our DNA, the fossil record, radiometric dating in conjunction with plate tectonics and geological stratification. The mechanism that forms our most fundamental understanding of biochemistry and the processes of organic life, which without that understanding our current technical advances in bio-engineering and medicine would not even be possible.

It all boils down to Occam s Razor really.

We can speculate all day whether we were "seeded" by aliens, but lets face it, all that does is shift the problem. Something would have had to occur for their start at some place and some time. It's a fun idea to entertain. Certainly plausible, but there is no compelling reason to believe it over other theories outside of personal preference.

As far as cave paintings of aliens, I've seen many. The problem with those is the same with interpreting any piece of art from any time. You tend to to see what you are looking for. Some might see helmets. Others might see a tribal headdress or mask. Where one imagines a spaceship, another might see only a canoe. Makes for good fodder for science fictions novels, but not compelling evidence that we are being visited.

I don't think any of this needs explaining....scientists are convinced that the "theory" of evolution and carbon dating are the absolute truth....

Scientists were convinced that the Earth was flat and that the universe revolved around the Earth....until they were proven wrong.

It is much easier for me to look at the evidence of Creation and see how it all points to a Creator than to believe a bunch of theories that we all started on accident and grew up from amoeba....I'm not some evolved monkey...I'm created in the image of a great Creator...on purpose....for a purpose.
 
Scientists were convinced that the Earth was flat and that the universe revolved around the Earth....until they were proven wrong.

This is a silly argument. Everyone at one point in time thought the world was flat, are people supposed to be magically born with this knowledge? It took a clever and curious person to use science to prove that it wasn't flat. And it took an equally as curious and clever person to use science to prove that the earth was revolved around the sun. It took someone with courage and integrity to go against the grain and suggest that something that was once thought to be common knowledge was wrong. Who do you think proved these scientists you refer to wrong? Scientists!

Both of these notions were rejected by the majority for a long time despite solid evidence. And where would we be if this knowledge was suppressed? Afraid to sail beyond the horizon...

And I see what you are doing with the word theory, don't confuse the way science uses this word with the way you do.
 
I wasn't downing scientists...just the current "truth" of science...my point wasn't that scientists are dumb...it was that theories are just that...theories.

I know and acknowledge that science is vital to our life and growth as a race...I just think that evolution and carbon dating are two widely accepted "facts" that are questionable at best.
 
I wasn't downing scientists...just the current "truth" of science...my point wasn't that scientists are dumb...it was that theories are just that...theories.

I know and acknowledge that science is vital to our life and growth as a race...I just think that evolution and carbon dating are two widely accepted "facts" that are questionable at best.
Science is a recent thing and "scientist" never thought that earth were flat, those were pre-scientific times.

Not all theories are equal, which is the strawman attack often used by anti-science ideologs. Evolution and carbon dating are two very well vetted science theory. Calling those "just theories", frankly, are ignorant.
 
I'm not going to continue this discussion on this thread. I do not accept that I am a descendent of evolved monkeys. I do not accept that the Earth is billions and billions of years old. I believe in a sovereign and omnipotent Creator. Science is necessary and is constantly changing as our finite knowledge and minds learn more about the world and the universe. You guys can believe what you want...I'm not trying to change your mind. You are not going to change mine.
 
We are all technical people here so let us please use the word theory correctly and not use it dismissively and inaccurately. It is a fallacy to say something is just a theory with the intent to dismiss it. The fallacy is known as the burden of proof fallacy.

A scientific theoryis a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method, and repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation. A theory makes predictions that are testable and verifiable. By definition a theory is on solid scientific ground and is backed by evidence that supports it.

Someone could use the same fallacy and state that the heliocentric model of the solar system is just a theory in an effort to discredit it. And while they would be correct that it is a theory, no one would take their deprecation seriously.

The theory of evolution is backed by solid science and observation and is well tested. It has been used to make predictions that were subsequently verified. It is one of the most tested and most observed theories ever. It doesn't sit well with many of us for obvious reasons; the reasons are a discussion that I think is better suited for other forums.

If you want to suggest that a scientific explanation is just an idea without confirming evidence then the appropriate word is hypothesis. If you were to say "evolution is just an unproven hypothesis" I would disagree, but give you credit for the proper use of the scientific terms.
 
I admit, I used the word theory incorrectly. Please accept my apologies for my grammatical error. My original point still stands. (See my last post). I will state...it is amazing to see how infinitely small we are in relation to the created universe...which was the point of the OP.
 
I just may need to use this thread as a point in my quest to turn my theory "That in most people common sense (wisdom) and knowledge are inversely proportional." to theorem. :)

Yes, we are so small and insignificant.
 
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More on NASAs warped fund-raising shenanigan: The Painful Truth About Nasa's Warp Drive Spaceship

I guess that over-promising on something that could not possibly do what was promised worked for the space shuttle program, so they decided to give it another try.

I gotta admit the hydroplane boat theme looks cool, but a spacecraft just isn't supposed to look like a boat, something just seems inherently wrong with that.


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Very interesting, however, I need not explain anything. Only someone without faith to believe that One with the wherewithal to "create" does exist may need those explanations. (y)

Your argument specifically was that because "We share vast stretch of DNA with all other animals on this planet -- Harryting that it would "imply that all life on Earth has the same designer -- RUSSB". I was pointing out (a small portion of) the laundry list of issues with that assertion. So no, you don't have to explain it. But like anything else if you voice an opinion without the ability or the desire to defend it then don't be surprised if it doesn't get taken all that seriously.

I know many people who are very religious and fully believe that a deity created everything and still understand that evolution is fact. The issue with your assertion is that it goes directly against established fact. Nothing I said is incompatible with a creator, just with a creator in the fashion you proposed.

And no, this isn't the forum for this type of stuff, but if somebody else puts it out there It's not in my nature to just let it go. And quite frankly the title of this post has OT mentioned twice and everyone can always just stop reading any time they care to.
 
I wasn't downing scientists...just the current "truth" of science...my point wasn't that scientists are dumb...it was that theories are just that...theories.

As they say, gravity is also "just a theory" as well. The only difference between questioning the veracity of gravity over evolution is that one is much more deadly to disregard, albeit equally as accurate.

I know and acknowledge that science is vital to our life and growth as a race...I just think that evolution and carbon dating are two widely accepted "facts" that are questionable at best.

So OK, forget about evolution or all that stuff. Let's just focus on a purely technical question. What about "carbon dating" have you heard is questionable? I am genuinely curious. It was interesting that you mentioned "carbon" dating while seeming to also imply that it is used to date things at billions of years timescale. Radiometric dating is not limited to Radiocarbon dating and carbon dating is only used for much shorter timescales where we can calibrate to atmospheric conditions that existed during times that we still have access to. For example, old growth trees dated by their rings. Carbon dating, for obvious reasons is used for dating things that used to be alive. Useless for dating rocks and the earth. Even so the margins and range of error are well understood and are customarily published along with the results.
Uranium-Lead dating is used for the types of time scales you are taking exception to. The beauty of this method is that it allows the decay of two separate isotopes to be examined in the same sample to provide a means of checking the consistency of the measurement and calculations. This dating method is well demonstrated to provide errors of less than 5%. That means over the 4.5 billion years of this planet, we are within less than 5 millions year it could be incorrect. I am unaware of any "serious" contention by real scientists that Uranium-Lead dating is anything but absolutely solid. And heck, if you don't like measuring the ratios of radioactive isotopes to do your dating, there is always the tried and true method of counting the exposed layers one by one by hand. Layers that we can also cross calibrate to geologic and astronomical events to check ourselves. The layers are right there in plain sight and have been driven up over the eons by the shifting of the earth's plates.

If you find the science of radioactive decay questionable, then you also must find quantum-tunneling questionable as well. And then you have to question the science behind semiconductors I'm afraid. And of course that makes the science behind PLCs questionable as well. We could go back to making them with vacuum tubes I suppose.
 
I just may need to use this thread as a point in my quest to turn my theory "That in most people common sense (wisdom) and knowledge are inversely proportional." to theorem. :)

It's funny how common sense is always one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder.


Yes, we are so small and insignificant.

Of that, we unambiguously agree.
 
So.... anyone watching the World Cup :)


TConnolly told me a long time ago that there are a few things that we should not talk about on here (PLCTalk.net).... religion and politics, he was correct

Most of the members here are have very strong opinions and they will never change with a few words so I try and stay out of both.

I am proud of my beliefs and my political views and no one can change either but myself

Guess we should just let this OT die and rest in peace, I think we all can agree that we are very small and thanks to all with the very cool pictures and links
 
So.... anyone watching the World Cup :)


TConnolly told me a long time ago that there are a few things that we should not talk about on here (PLCTalk.net).... religion and politics, he was correct

Most of the members here are have very strong opinions and they will never change with a few words so I try and stay out of both.

I am proud of my beliefs and my political views and no one can change either but myself

Guess we should just let this OT die and rest in peace, I think we all can agree that we are very small and thanks to all with the very cool pictures and links

I couldn't agree more---I went against my better judgment and threw out a couple replies without giving them enough time to make sure I'd crossed my t's and dotted my i's....of course, those who disagree with what I said are picking it apart. I am an engineer....I firmly believe in science, scientific theory and their importance....this forum is not the place to have argument about religion and I should have kept my thoughts to myself......o_O
 

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