Scope of the commercial building automation field

I think most of us here are in the industrial automation field. Could you explain exactly what is commercial automation. I imagine it is to use plc's to control building temperatures, boilers, water as well as display everything on an HMI.

Lucky for you if they use the plc to control the building elevators, you are in the right place. Just be careful in how you ask for help in using elevator logic.

Dear Mr. Mark,

First of all, thank you very much for the prompt response. Your interpretation of the commercial building automation is perfect. They use PLCs to control building HVAC equipments.Most of the times PLCs are connected in a network to control HVAC equipments of large buildings.

With Regards,

Amit

Over here most of the buildings controled by dedicted controllers.

Not because PLCs canot do it, because it cheaper and not need highly skiled engineers.
The controllers have limited ability.
Some of the controllers are dedicted for elevators Air Condition ect.
The integration between all and HMI.Its become closed to what we do in industrial automation.

Here in Ozz most building automation is done by Honeywell, TAC, Alerton etc etc. Many customers wish to get away from these systems as the companies involved tend to charge very large amounts of money for very minor alterations.

I guess the main advantage they have is proven standard drop in routines that work and the systems can be implemented by fairly lowly paid employees very easily. I do not know of any systems integrators that have these routines written for PLCs but there may be some of course.

Remote intelligence is not really a problem with PLCs these days with improved networks available and some very powerful small PLCs available. The main problems I see is developing the routines into function blocks and the resistance of mechanical contractors to anyone other than a proven BMS contractor doing the job.

I may have a shot at one in the new year by the way. A compant here wants the BMS system to be done in industrial grade PLCs and not a standard BMS system.

Wow! I am excited with the kind of response I received from all over the world. Your replies to my question have definitely broadened my perspectives of building automation systems. At this point, I would like to draw following inferences from our discussion so far and would appreciate your expert comments.

1) The automation techniques used in commercial building automation and industrial automation are almost similar.
2) Therefore, the skill set developed by working in building automation field will be useful in industrial automation. (This is my biggest concern about accepting the job offer. This will be my first job. Therefore, I don't know if I will be able to shift to industrial automation after working in commercial building automation)

Thank you very much to all of you for taking time to help me out. I highly appreciate your guidance.

With Regards,

Amit

The automation techniques used in commercial building automation and industrial automation are almost similar.

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Some areas only. Don't get too excited.

Therefore, the skill set developed by working in building automation field will be useful in industrial automation. (This is my biggest concern about accepting the job offer. This will be my first job. Therefore, I don't know if I will be able to shift to industrial automation after working in commercial building automation)

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I would be inclined to believe that the transition would be far easier from industrial automation to building automation quite frankly. There are many things to consider in industrial automation that are not relevant in building automation. For example how should an emergency stop be wired into the control circuit for a machine? Irelevant really in building automation but absolutely critical in industrial automation.

Also programming a PLC is far more difficult and requires a lot more skill than a BMS system. BMS systems are generally designed to be very simple so that porrly paid people without a lot of skill can just 'drag and drop' routines into the software. PLCs are genreally not and then consider that there are a huge number of PLCs on the market and none of them are the same. The differences in PLCs are huge. The differences in PLC software are huge although most now comply with the relevant IEC standard. The standard only really refers to methodolgy and genearl look and feel. For example AB. Siemens and Omron are so different in the way you program that you can spend weeks just getting used to the different software.

I repeat, I believe it would be far easier going from an industrial automation to a building automation system than vice versa. I would always start with industrial automation first. This means at least a trades certificate, probably as a controls electrician, and the working forward. I have been working on and off in industrial automation for nearly 50 years and I am still a learner.

Had to break for dinner - medium rare scotch fillet, free range eggs and salad - YUM!

Then there is the subject of networks. BMS is usually LON or BACnet - BACnet is becoming more popular every day. Check here for BACnet - http://www.bacnet.org/ and here for LON http://www.echelon.com/.

PLCs use Ethernet, Ethernet I/P, Device Net, Profibus (various flavours), Profibus TCP, Control Net, Modbus RTU, Modbus ASCII, Modbus TCP, Modbus Plus, Controller Link, CompoNet, ASI, Safety Device Net, Safety ASI, Safety Profibus, etc etc. Just about every PLC manufacturer has a proprietary network for example and they are all different.

One of my customers has a very large network of Siemens PLCs on Ethernet to a Citect SCADA system. The Citect SCADA has over 115,000 tags and is very large. IT come in over the weekend and re-program the routers. The SCADA can no longer find the PLCs. A common problem also.

Here are links for a few industrial networks - www.odva.org www.modbus.org http://ourworld.cs.com/rahulsebos/
The latter one lists most industrial networks and the number in use is mind boggling - and they are not all there.

Then we go to instrumentation - commonly used to interface to PLCs. Thermocouples (many varieties), RTDs, temperature controllers, level measuring devices, pressure sensors, photo electric sensors, etc etc.

And then there are printers, cameras, HMIs, magnetic readers, card readers, VSDs, CNC machines, radio devices, radio communications, satellite communications, etc etc.

Then there is motion control, position control, packing machines, tracking goods on a conveyer, detecting empty bottles/packages, weigh scales, etc etc.

Then there is the very common problem of trying to get a device which uses one protocol to communicate with a device that uses another protocol. The various PLC brands do not generally even communicate with each other over Ethernet.
As I stated, do not get too excited about industrial automation being anything like building automation - it is not!!! Many of us here have spent all our lives in the business and are still learning - and will be till the day we die or retire.

As an example, I spent 5 years as an apprentice, 2 years doing industrial electronics, 4 years doing an electrical engineering certificate, 4 years doing and instrumentation certificate, worked through all of this including getting called out a 2 AM to fix a machine many times, winding motors, machining and re-building commutators, building welders and HV transformers, designing control circuits, designing HV transformers, and on it goes. Many have done far more than I by the way.

I wish you well but, quite frankly, the world of industrial automation is far bigger, more diverse and more complex than building automation will ever be. Building automation is really a piece of cake.

Bob

I think you convince Amit to take the job he offeerd.
You bomb him with all the trem we know.He is looking for shelter now,

Amit

Bob covered all (including his dinner)
In this business of industrial automation you will always have to lern in order to be update.
I spend 10-15% of my time reading and learning new things.
I think it depend how far you want to go.
Industrial Automation is almost un limited compare building automation.
To switch from building automation to Industrial Automation might be very difficult.
Good Luck

BobB,

What are free range eggs?

Gotta love Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs The main difference between free range and factory farmed eggs is that the birds are permitted to roam freely within the farmyard and only kept in sheds or henhouses at night. However, not all countries have legal standards defining what free range means. For example, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has no standards and allows egg producers to freely label any egg as a free range egg. Many producers will label their eggs as cage-free in addition to or instead of free range. In other countries, such as Australia, strict regulations govern what can qualify to be called free range and those eggs which do not qualify must state that they are cage or barn laid on their container.

Consumers of free-range eggs want eggs from hens who are kept under traditional low-density free-range methods. Critics of EU-style free-range regulations point out that commercial free-range egg farming generally does not live up to these consumer requirements, since the regulations allow the use of yarding rather than free range. Yarding combines a high-density poultry house with an attached fenced yard, and both its methods and results are closer to high-density confinement than true free range.[1]

Free range eggs may be broader, and have more of an orange colour to their yolks[2] due to the abundance of greens and insects in the diet of the birds. An orange yolk is, however, no guarantee that an egg was produced by a free-range hen. Feed additives such as marigold petal meal, dried algae, or alfalfa meal can be used to color the yolks.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs

Bob O said:

BobB,

What are free range eggs?

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Sorry to steer your thread toward the egg - had to do it though ;-)

Both Bobs have provided great advise. In my experience companies and individuals that specialize in Industrial versus Commercial automation are distinct groups. Even the hardware and protocols are very different (although, as pointed out, PLCs could run commercial automation but commercial automation controllers are probably too specific to run industrial systems).

My opinion is that diverifying your skillset is never a bad thing. However, if you're more interested in industrial, I would go there first, then to commercial second. I think you'd learn more and get a better foundation that way.

What are free range eggs?

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Depends on who is telling the story. I have seen free range eggs sold from farms where the chooks only get out into a dusty yard with no grass or anything. Have also seen them sold from a large barn where the chooks are allowed to run free inside only instead of being in batteries (cages).

These were real free range chooks with a huge barn and free range over the property eating worms, caterpillars, snails, grass etc. The food in the barn was all clean stuff with no colouring material to colour up the egg yolks, no artificial stuff at all and you had to wait for the chooks to move out of the way so that you could drive the car into the yard.

The only time they are locked in the barn is at night to keep the foxes out.

Grown the 'old way'. YUM!!! Great flavour.

Growing free range eggs would be a diverse skill too.