Dangerous novices programming plc's

I figured I had to my .02 in here. A situation that came up about 3 years ago. The company I worked for at that time went out and got quotes to design a machine because I did not have the time, we were in the middle of 7 other rebuilds. So along come a fresh college idiot and we also had some good integrators give quotes. Well of course the fresh college idiot got the bid because as MGMT said, it cant be that hard, and they liked his price as well. Well he made the machine, did the program and such installed it and got it running and gave training. About 6 months after the install a maintenance tech was working on the machine. There was a very sharp pair of sheres on the machine. Well even though the air was locked out there was still enough residual pressure that when his tool brushed against a sensor it caused the knife to fire and he ended up with 27 stiches. after investigation and the OEM saying that they did not have proper safety coding in place they still blamed the mechanic for improper work performance. I always wondered if they would have just spent the extra and had a seasoned professional do the work if this accident could have been avoided. Some of the things that would have made it better:

1. A positive dump valve that would have made sure all the air was dumped out of the machine when the air was locked out.

2. a series of safety measures that would have ensured that nothing could move unless all safeties were met and machine was in a run state.

3. Better training of the mechanic to ensure lockout/tagout. Mainly the electrical should have been locked out as well.
 
......So along come a fresh college idiot and we also had some good integrators give quotes. Well of course the fresh college idiot got the bid because as MGMT said, it cant be that hard, and they liked his price as well. ..........

Obviously you don't have much patience for a college graduate....the reality is that the management is/was the idiot(s) for hiring him to do the job. If they have the impressions that controls work is "not that hard" and are influenced by the price that easily.......focus your attitude on the real problem.
 
Pretty impressive for an fresh college idiot.

Did the guy do the mechanical, electrical, pneumatics design as well as write the PLC program?

Why didn't anyone check his work?
 
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Why didn't anyone check his work?

Unfortunately in some small companies the fresh out of University Grad is the only Engineer of that type, and as such has no one to check their work. It's an unsafe practice and not only unprofessional, unethical, and irresponsible, but just plain dangerous. That doesn't mean it doesn't and won't happen....

On a side note, all our machinery is CAT3 or CAT4, and when undergoing service or repairs all E-stops on the machine must be pushed at absolute minimum. If it's electrical work the machine is usually isolated and unplugged too. Working for an OEM, during commissioning I often have the need to bridge out certain safety devices, to this day there has not been a case where I or any of my colleagues have been unable to safely work on a machine even under these circumstances.
 
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Pretty impressive for an fresh college idiot.

Did the guy do the mechanical, electrical, pneumatics design as well as write the PLC program?

Why didn't anyone check his work?

Ive got to agree. If he was fresh out of college, its amazing that he was able to do that.

Actually... he couldn't. He must have had more experience than he is being credited for.
 
I felt I wanted to input my two cents here. This is kind of long so be warned.


I am a Journeyman electrician with over 20 years in the petrochemical and automotive industries and currently carry a high voltage certification for substation work which requires it's own special safety procedures. My emphasis currently is robotics, plc, and automation. I was once a dumb rookie plc programmer also. Still am depending on who you ask and when :) Anyway, the company I work for has provided many hours of training for me on plc, automation, robotics, hydraulics, system integration, safety systems, etc. It was several years after I started working for this company before I was the least bit comfortable in making an online change to operating equipment during production. Yes I do make changes to logic all the time to keep production running, but I also log them so they get fixed properly during regular maintenance. Yes, I have caused downtime, sequence issues and equipment damage over the years, but rarely.


I asked a lot of questions to the controls engineers I've gotten to know and still ask for their input and assistance on a regular basis. I have earned the controls engineers trust in that they know that I know what I am doing. The controls engineers now routinely give me major changes or additions to the plc logic that they need to do which lightens their load. These changes are to be input even during production. Testing is done of logic changes during break time for anything that could stop production and I am fully aware of what the machine is currently doing and what the new logic is supposed to do. There is still things I do not know much about, but it is mostly system design


The company also does extensive testing including safety systems on new production equipment. This is to ensure the safety system works the way it was designed to. All safety interlocks and devices are hardwired and redundant (runchain 0, runchain 1). Plc gets inputs from hardwire for indication but can not control the hardwire.


The company I work for also hires summer engineering interns. This summer I had the pleasure of working on a new project that was assigned to a couple of these interns. One was having trouble with getting changes made to a program and sometimes complained that her edits were not "showing up" for some reason. I wondered why she was having so much difficulty so I watched over her shoulder for a few minutes and discovered the problem. She did not know how to make online edits or do online programming, so she was going off line making edits then downloading them to the processor, doing this for even the simplest edits. Sometimes she forgot to download the edits. I took a few minutes to show her how to make online edits etc. and test them. She said she learned more in a few minutes about plc programming than in an entire semester at college. Point I am getting at is everyone needs assistance sometimes and that assistance does not always come from a book or the engineer who is supposed to mentor. So if you are new or are having problems, put the ego away and ask questions.




As far as the guy who was working on a conveyor when it started throwing him and his tools off, then it was at least partly his own fault. The other part of fault lies in the company he works for or is contracted to for failing to ensure the employee was following proper safety lockout/tag out and hazardous energy control. The same goes for the employee who was cut by the shear knife when residual air fired the knife. He should have properly tested the locked out equipment and controlled (blocked and tested) the potential energy hazard.


The company I work for (and previous one) provides lockout/tag out and hazardous energy control training every six months. Hazardous energy control is not simply "locking out" the equipment, but making sure that all stored energy has been removed from the equipment and all machine blocks and safety devices are properly installed. This company also has a gate lockout procedure for dealing with common equipment problems during production hours. Every single "gate lockout" box is hardwired into the cells safety circuit and has been very carefully checked and certified by an independent certification. No work may be performed with the gate lockout if the procedure is not listed on the gate placard. No work may be done during non-production hours using the gate lockout procedure.
There are also procedures in place that cover working on live equipment if it is absolutely necessary. These procedures must be reviewed, agreed upon, and signed by safety and everyone else involved before any live equipment is worked on. This procedure also includes a statement as to why the equipment could not be properly locked out and a list of hazards. Yea, this is somewhat CYA, but at least everyone is on the same page and are aware of the hazards.


Lockout locks accidentally left on are not to be removed except by following a certain procedure. Failure to follow the procedure will result in a minimum balance of shift, and 3 days off with lockout and hazardous energy retraining for all involved including supervisors. General procedure is to contact supervisor who will contact his supervisor, Maint coordinator, security and the union. A search will then be made of the locked out equipment for the employee. If the employee is likely not in plant (shift ended, weekend) or otherwise can not be found then security will call the employees home for an ok. If no contact can be made, then a search of the locked out equipment will again be made before the lock is removed by security.


I am ultimately responsible for my own safety.


It is something that has served me well over the years. Especially now when society looks to be a bunch of "don't blame me, it's somebody else's fault" idiots.
 
PLC for idiots

Quite a few things discussed so far

1- Safety first but ... does a person who has to grease a conveyor know where and how this conveyor is safe , he most probably has to 'believe' what an electrician tells him.

I also had an accident where a robot throw me off .... the purpose of the job was to 'teach' this robot a few new positione etc.Due to a faulty cable and 'bad' programming this robot decided to move at full speed to its home position.Thats the space I occupied.

2- Bad Programming ... reading some of the threads ( its a treat to read) you can see that even the basic knowledge is lacking ( Bit ,Byte)but these people have to resolve complex problems .It must lead to bad programming.I am also a selfmade PLC specialist but it took a lot of manuals , lots of bench testing ,lots of rewrites , using preset progamming rules and some proper coaching when in the deep end of the pool

Bye

Eric
 
I realized once I posted the message that I forgot to mention that the project was only a rebuild. The frame and the machine were already there. All he had to do was put in a PLC, program it to do its job, commision it, and make sure it ran properly. Here is why I made the somewhat nasty comment about College Idiot. Yes he was out of school only 2 or 3 years, instead of going and working for someone else, cutting his teeth, and learning the trick of the trade, you know kind of apprentice work, he immediately sought self employment with the attitude that I went to college and I know everything, or at least that is the way he presented himself. He did not work for any integrator, any industry or anything prior to his schooling or after his schooling. I mean he was only 24 and said he had gone from HS to College then off on his own because he could make more money. In essence it is both MGMT fault for not understanding more about what is going on, safety administrations fault for not properly looking over machine and checking it out completely, and his fault for not doing all the things he needed to do. So yes the blame does fall on more than one, but if the comments made in this thread are any indication on schooling, then that makes things even scarier. The postings I am refering to are where comments are made that safety circuits and such are not being fully trained. I am sorry but with OSHA, Lawyers everywhere, and all that jazz, I would think this would be one the biggest and most fundamental things that should be covered and it should be harped on every year not just as side notes or something like that. When I was in college we had a professor whom I admired, at the time I dont think I did but for any of you TV watchers who watch NCIS, think of what happens to Denozo when he acts up. He gets smacked in the back of the head. Well this professor he would do this to you if you were unsafe. If he told you to do something and you did not know how or did not ask questions you got a crack. Talk about a wake up call. It was his way of saying dont forget to ask the basic questions of WHO, WHAT, WHY, WHEN, and HOW. And his and my father most important statement of all, THE DUMBEST QUESTION IS THE ONE NEVER ASKED. Well enough length on this note. Have a great day.

Ive got to agree. If he was fresh out of college, its amazing that he was able to do that.

Actually... he couldn't. He must have had more experience than he is being credited for.
 
Quite a few things discussed so far

1- Safety first but ... does a person who has to grease a conveyor know where and how this conveyor is safe , he most probably has to 'believe' what an electrician tells him.

You could not be more wrong with this statement. LOTO and safety is EVERYONES responsibility. Anyone who works around machines can be in danger of losing their lives. Work is a job, there is no room for error when it comes to safety
 
I have 2 years experience in PLC's and I know I don't know everything. I work for a company that has been using PLC's since they started and already had all the program's written. I make changes to them and my boss looks over everything I do letting me know if I can do something in a better way. When I read this post I got Deja Vue, my company is looking into using RFID along with proper lock out/tag out to keep the maintenance workers safe. My company is in the process of having the shop totally rewired electrically because we lost a friend of our a few months ago to a workplace accident. I would hate to see someone injured or lose their life because of something I did not take the time to check and make sure it was safe as it could be.
 
Maybe I’m wrong, but isn’t this supposed to be a “Help” website? Rookie programmers are going to be the ones with the most “Basic” questions because they are green. One thing that bugs me the most are “senior” programmers who think that everyone should know what they all know when in reality, they learned everything from experience or asking questions when they were rookies. Lets not bash new/green programmers or even experienced programmers who are now learning some new technology. I’ve experienced learning new technologies through manuals, test benches and asking experienced programmers, and I find that asking people who have experience to be the most helpful! Some manuals leave out some very important things that aren’t intuitive. If you only take one thing out of my rant here, please take this! Any programmer, new or old (experienced), that come across a program that you see will case issues, let the person who programmed it know. The person that programmed it either overlooked it, doesn’t know he programmed it wrong or had “fat finger syndrome” and needs this to be pointed out. This is how we all learn! That said, I know to check, re-check and check again all my programming before I deploy it and I’m just here to help out others and get help from others.
 
I believe there are so many unqualified people here because there are so many new programmers that are the only people in the plant that have any idea about PLCs. Being an OEM, ive been in many many plants over the last 15 years; and, in every instance save a very few, there was either no PLC person, a maintenance guy with little plc skill, or an engineer from a different field having to do dual jobs. They may not have manuals, etc. They google search PLCs and find us. They see how awesome we all are, and post their questions. We help. Like it or not, we are that PLC expert that all these companies lack. ;)

matt
 
he immediately sought self employment with the attitude that I went to college and I know everything, or at least that is the way he presented himself.

Gotta love the entitlement generation. I've worked with people on both ends of the spectrum. Some did excellent work and valued input while others thought they knew everything and didn't want any input. The same know-it-all individuals wouldn't hesitate to criticize the experienced workers, though. I really got ****ed when I saw them laugh at people who took the time to properly lace and label their wiring.

We had one seasonal employee who had no electronics background, but was perfectly capable of learning and performing the functions we needed him to. He had a great attitude and never made a mistake. He could follow wiring diagrams just fine and construct the circuits with no difficulty. He ALWAYS asked me to look over his work. It was perfect every time. Now this is where it gets funny...

Another experienced employee was always complaining about how people with little or no electronics background were being hired into the department all the time. He made more mistakes than they did!!! In fact, he miswired a couple of programmable relays and literally blew them up when he plugged it in. This was within a couple hours of one of his rants even! lmfao

He blamed it on a full-time technician that drew up the diagram. I looked at it and found that yes, there was a serious error in the drawing. The sad thing is that it was pretty obvious. If memory serves me correctly, 120V was wired across the NC contacts of one of the relays. The 120V also powered the relays.

Chris
 
Firstly an analogy about the logic vs the lock-out tag-out deal. Would you not put your seatbelt on if your car had an air bag? Or would you disable your air bag if your seatbelt was on? Both should have been done!

Here's what I think the PLC comunity needs to do.

#1 - Some regulated training needs to be done.

In certain areas of industrial work you need to be trained. You can't run a forklift without a forklift ticket. You can't go up scaffolding without a fall arrest course. And you should not be able to touch a PLC without some sort of certification. And I don't mean those 1-day courses that a PLC manufacturer gives you so that you can play with their software; there should be a regulated course which teaches and warns of the potential hazards and consequences of typical PLC situations.

#2 - PLC code needs to be written/approved by a certified proffessional

Because most training corses only last about 1 week in your head; I think this second step is needed. Ladder logic is a direct desended of relay logic, which used to be mandated to be stamped by an engineer. In most cases PLC logic is not. I'm not suggesting that PLC logic needs to stamped by an engineer; but rather someone who has significant field time and has passed some sort of standardized test.

#3 - A definitive line needs to be made between industrial PLC's and personal computers

Lastly this needs to be done because both worlds are slowly creeping towards eachother. PLC's are not PC's and the shouldn't be handled the same way.
 
I'm actually one of the dual job engineers that Matthias spoke about. I have a chemical engineer background with no formal PLC training, but I know computers to where I'm the IT guy an write some C++ programs for the company (learnt it in my own time for fun) when required. My chem Eng degree had a LOT of safety aspects and forward thinking (you don't want to incorrectly size a safety valve or not enough bracing for water hammer).

We needed a major drive upgrade (16 drives 50-150hp) since our drives had a failure approx every month (some a board, some a blow up). We got quotes, but couldn't afford them (tried to get financing for over a year). I figured out a way to control our drives with a AB PLC (incase the PLC and spare died), got demo software and simulated them enough that we purchased a ControlLogix platform and little 10hp test drive. This worked, therefore the next stage was a piecemeal drive upgrade. We started on the winder and then every month moved onto a couple drives per shutdown. At present we have a sucessful 16 drive upgrade. This is my first program and first HMI design.

The reason I took on the challenge is that I know the system, the interlocks and we still couldn't get financing for the drive upgrade so instead of about 30 drive failures (and call-ins) last year we had 0.

My initial code was junk, but I think now its quite good, but it works. Best thing that I did was plan ahead, take things slow (I could have spent nearly 2 years solely on the project and the company would have still come out ahead) and write simulation loops to test everything and all scenarios (someone cuts a cable) to ensure fail safe.

Since this went well, my second PLC program I'm currently working on is a DCS overhaul to the AB ControlLogix platform (30 PID loop, 24 motor controls).
 

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