HMI Selection

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Hi all,

I'm lucky enough to be in the position of helping a new startup define their standard equipment list. I'm currently working out a couple of options for their standard/preferred HMI's, and hoping the good folk of the forum can throw in their 2c worth!

My current thinking is, give an option for Red Lion and Allen-Bradley.

The Red Lions I'm a fan of wherever I've used them, but haven't used them enough to know which series would be a good pick for a general-purpose HMI. Any tips? I can specify one series for small applications and another series for larger if necessary.

Allen-Bradley is just because that's what the preferred brand of PLC and drive is, so it makes sense to have it as an option. I was wondering whether I should be specifying the PVP7 (standard for smaller applications, performance for larger), or looking more at the new PV5500 series. I like the idea of going the PV5500 series because it's the latest equipment, and I've got the chance here to standardize on something from day one, so I should make the most of it. And also because to be honest FTView ME can be a royal PITA. But at the same time, I'm wondering if they're far enough advanced in their development yet to be viable in a "all applications must use this HMI" sort of way, or whether I'd be safer staying with the PVP7 that, while a PITA at times, is at least a known quantity. Any frequent users of the PV5500 out there?

And of course, open to other suggestions entirely. A penny for your thoughts?

Edit: some of the HMI's in this application will be used by people wearing thick gloves, that will be very cold (may have been recently submerged in a liquid that's around -50 degrees*, and might still have some of the liquid on them). So for those particular HMI's, they'll need to be reasonably rugged in that regard

*celcius or fahrenheit, take your pick, they're almost the same down that low
 
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I am a big fan of the Red Lion HMI's. The Graphite Series is just about as indestructible as you can find in a HMI. They cost more than the new CR1000/3000 Series but if you need a pretty rugged HMI it is a good one.

I have used the PanelView over the years and really have no issues with them either except the 600 which is all plastic and just kind of flimsy for a HMI that cost over $2000. But like it has been said on this forum many times " No one ever got fired for spec'ing AB" :)
 
Thanks Bullzi. I just edited my post to include a note about being rugged in some applications - what do you think, would the Graphite series be up to it?
 
I have used the older G3 series in outdoor applications in Central Wyoming. In the winter time is gets down to -20 F at times. They seem to handle the cold weather. The Graphite series is available in an outdoor version. It has an advertised operating temp range of -20c to 60c. I would think it would be up to the task as long as they dont drench the thing in -50 fluid. Nothing I have seen thus far would make me think it wouldn't work.
 
Concerning your rugged requirement, it seems like a recipe for disaster. Not the -50 degrees part, but the liquid touching the panel.
I don't know how exactly these are to be used, but if it's a mix of liquid drenched gloves and someone walking past without gloves or leather gloves, this too can be problematic as it will spread everywhere.

Perhaps one of those new touchscreen pens or even larger actually next to the HMI instead?
 
I know Red Lion has replacement films for some of their screens, might be something to look into to help with the gloves.

Otherwise i like cardosocea's idea of a pen/stylus mounted next to the screen to help. Put it on a cable tether so it doesn't get lost or find itself in someone's pocket
 
Red Lion got 3 different line of Panel interface now? I remember they only had the G3 which most people seems to like here. What's the major differentiation between the 3 lines?
 
Red Lion got 3 different line of Panel interface now? I remember they only had the G3 which most people seems to like here. What's the major differentiation between the 3 lines?

Actually 4 lines (for now) counting the Kadet which I think is on the way out.

They still have the G3. It's a tough beast but not as sleek as the others, with the studded wide bezel, takes more work to mount, but it's fast and full featured.

Then the Graphite is the sleek and tough high end model. It is beautiful, has the same features as the G3 as far as performance, but also supports a control module and add on expansion I/O modules. It can also be programmed with Crimson 3.0 or the newer Crimson 3.1 software.

The Kadet series is the bottom end. It programs with Crimson 3.0 but lacks data logging, email and web browser support. I was told that the Kadet is going to be phased out. It is not made by Red Lion.

The newer CR1000 series will replace the Kadet. It is similar in appearance to the Kadet in the smaller version and uses a plastic body (unlike the aluminum bodied Graphite). It too doesn't support data logging, SQL, email or web browser. The SD card slot does support "cloning" to make replacing them super easy without software.

The new CR3000 series supports data logging and web browser, FTP sync, SQL sync, email, etc.

The CR series are only programmable with Crimson 3.1. Crimson 3.1 is nearly identical to 3.0 except there is no emulator and they added some flashy graphics and textures.

That's the short version of it.

See here for more:
http://www.redlion.net/products/industrial-automation/hmis-and-panel-meters/hmi-operator-panels
 
Push buttons, or rubber booted switches for your cold as, thick as and wet* as possible gloves. Hand wheels for Analog values. You have to do more work on interface efficiency when your operators have gloves.

Have a separate operator station for your glove free friends. Possibly administrative or engineering controls to stop the Danny Glovers from using the station for The Hands, and vice versa.

*That's not water by the way. Make sure to check compatibility of any materials used.

You haven't hinted at what weight they might put on particular features.

What value does a gorgeous, reliable, stable HMI give to the company?

Can they handle operating system support? ie for an ignition edge type setup.

Does open source gel with their companies ethos?

Does the cost of the hardware have more weight than the maintainability of the system? Can you have any unplanned downtime? Can you have any planned downtime?

Will there be a SCADA as well, or is the HMI going to want to do a lot of those add on things like emails, remote access, logging, keep a copy of the wiring diagrams and manuals?

Are they making loads of very similar systems, and they want to be confident that the program downloaded to that HMI with a few tweaks from someone else's PC will function correctly without doing a full FAT?

Would they rather something that cost $300 with loads of features that's easy to replace, or something that costs $3000, less features, less likely to fail**, but when it does you might have to pony up $3000 before you can use the machine?

**Because clearly this is an objective measure, you just look at the MTBF section of every HMI vendor's datasheet, rather than relying on the quality of their marketing department?
 
Thanks for the input everyone.

To give a little more context: yes, there will be a SCADA (Ignition). But it may not be practical/cost effective to have a full PC-and-touchscreen mounted in some areas where the operator just needs to set a couple of timers and press start, or view alarm information. So I'm looking at what sort of HMI to use in these applications. To that end, it doesn't need to have a million bells and whistles, it just needs to be reasonably hardy, reliable, not too expensive, etc.

As far as use with cold, wet gloves - I'm not envisioning it being quite as bad as I perhaps made out. I'm thinking that most of the time, people will remove their gloves before they use the HMI, or at the very least wipe them dry first. It's not the sort of process where every single cycle you have to put your hands in the solution and then press go, it's just a case of occasionally someone might be messing about in the tank and then want to navigate to another display to see what that alarm that just went off is all about. So I'm not to concerned about the HMI having to stand up to repeated exposure, or be 100% usable with gloves - it's more just that if someone does go straight from tank to HMI, I don't want the HMI screen to bubble up or crack, I need it to be able to withstand that. If the operator then has to wipe their gloves (or take them off) because they don't have the dexterity to operate the HMI with them on, then so be it - as long as they haven't damaged the HMI in the process.

Open source would definitely be fine. I toyed with AdvancedHMI, but again it just doesn't quite fit the space. With a full SCADA package in the background, I just need a small, standalone package to act as a local control interface for small sections, and again the whole PC-and-touchscreen is a little overkill.

At this stage downtime itself is not a huge drama. It's more that if something goes down, they may lose whatever value of product is currently being processed, as it can't be salvaged if the process is interrupted once it has been started. But they're not looking at $xxx per hour for downtime, it's not yet that sort of operation. However, if things go well and they start rolling out into other facilities, that could change - they could be looking at very critical timelines for processing product.

Same thing with "making loads of very similar systems". Yes, that's the intention, but right now they're still in the prototyping stage, so anything could happen. In some ways it would make sense to keep costs to a minimum while they iron out the bugs and see how well their system is going to work, but in another way it might be better to keep the long-term vision clearly in sight and develop the application on hardware that will be able to stay the course if the prototype goes well and they have a rapid expansion.
 
Ignition/Ignition edge, on whatever hardware you like.

Ignition edge I had not heard of until now. I'll look into it because from a quick google, I'm intrigued and cautiously excited. If you've used it, can you give me a 30 second overview of your experience?
 

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