Monitoring motor current

I am going to go into left field a little here. It seems the consensus is that current will not provide the response needed to provide the fault. Seems the drive alone in this case, can not provide what is needed either.

My new thought was maybe position could be monitored, with encoder or ? I assume it should move at a given distance within a specific time frame, if so couldnt this movement be monitored to also show there is/can be a jam?

Just a thought.
 
Peter,
Yes, I believe if I can catch this in a very short amount of time I can avoid severe damage. Right now it seems to get jammed between the moving portion of the transfer and a stationary air cyclinder. It has enough force to bend both guide rods on the cylinder and the cylinder shaft itself. See, I got this idea that I want to be able to reach in the machine and stop the transfer. Not a safe idea, but this is how sensitive I want this. That's why I changed my mind on not having to cover the accel and decel points. My thoughts are to kill the output to the motor if it even begins to get in a jammed situation. If you got some ideas feel free to explain. I'm new at this situation, so any help would be appreciated. Everyones thoughts are greatly appreciated, that's why I came here. I've got a bunch of ideas from you all and tommorrow I can start trying so of them.
Thanks
Tim
 
You need to monitor the rate of change in the torque.

You need a means of shutting down the system when the positive torque rate goes above some threshold. If this threshold is higher than what occurs during acceleration then the solution will be easier and conditionally enabling and disabling this feature. A motion controller to do this would be over kill. I would call the Omega site that Tom posted and see if they have a circuit that can monitor the rate of change and has set points for closing or openning a contact when the rate goes above a set point. It would be possible to design this circuit with a RC differentiator and comparator. This would require a couple op amps. We make circuits like this for our needs using quick turn PCB houses. Many provide free layout software and can turn around a board for less than $100.
 
Since Ron is covering left field, I'll try my hand at right field... :p

I have no idea what your mechanism looks like, but I'll offer (yet another) possible solution. Assuming this is a linear motion, what about something like this?

Similar to how an overload clutch functions, could you spring load the driven member (load) to the driving member? The springs are used to keep the load "centered" and would be selected to provide only the needed pressure. Any movement off "center" would indicate a jam. Here's an attempt at another ascii drawing...

L O A D
+-------+
+---+ | | +---+
-----------| |--/--/--/--/--/| |/--/--/--/--/--/| |-----------
| | / / / / / | | / / / / / | |
<-- REV | |/ /SPRING / | | / /SPRING / | | FWD -->
| | / / / / /| |/ / / / / /| |
-----------| |-/--/--/--/--/-| |--/--/--/--/--/-| |-----------
| | +--+ +--+ | |
| | | | | |
| | +-+ | |
| | +---+ | |
| | | | <-- PROX | |
| +----------------------------------------+ |
| |
+------------------------------------------------+
| |
+---+


.
Someone probably already makes an item like this. You may want to look for something similar to THESE collision sensors.

I'm hoping your "See, I got this idea that I want to be able to reach in the machine and stop the transfer. Not a safe idea, but this is how sensitive I want this" statement was for demonstration purposes only. PERSONNEL safety is a completely different issue!

beerchug

-Eric
 
I'll look into it Eric and yes the reaching in was for my use only. The complete transfer system has doors and sensors everywhere to keep people out of it while running.
Tim
 
As for the comments above concerning motor current measurement being too slow, I offer the following considerations:

First motor lead current is the vector sum of field-producing amps and torque-producing amps. At very light torque loads, the torque amps get almost lost in the field amps which are generally between 20 and 25% of nameplate FLA. So, at light loads, using motor lead current to find torque results in large error and is usually unsuitable. However, at loads above 50% or motor rated torque, the torque amps dominate the vector equation and the result is very good accuracy. In fact, above 80% torque load, using motor lead current without solving for torque amps only results in a few % error and is generally regarded as a good indicator of motor torque (you can do the math!).

Second, motor and lead inductance are not a factor in measurement response time because it is the current that actually produces the torque (well, ok, the current produces the field and magnetic flux which then produces the torque). Inductance will retard the buildup of current which subsequently retards the buildup of torque. This actually works in our favor on this application because the motor cannot build torque instantaneously thereby giving the detection system time to respond.

Third, the slow increase in motor torque is only true for torque produced by current. When a jam occurs, the system inertia which includes the motor rotor, gearing, and the mass of the moving conveyor will produce a very rapid increase in force at the point of the jam due to rapid deceleration. I know of no method, mechanical or electrical, which will detect this at any point other than at the jam itself.

I've had experience with several similar systems including one particularly fragile expensive wire conveyor for cooling freshly baked loaves of bread. It didn't help that the whole thing was made of 316 stainless steel either. It wasn't a Mitsubishi drive but I used a similar current level detection system in the drive and, in very careful testing, routinely stopped the motor faster than any mechanical torque detector or motor lead current detector.

While this testing was done on a plain-jane V/Hz drive, if you happen to be using a sensorless vector drive, the response will be even faster. In fact, if you are using a high performance sensorless vector drive, it is likely that the drive regulator is rapidly solving for motor torque on a continuous basis and your detection can actually be done with torque rather than current. I doubt that this would make any practical different at higher motor loads, but, at light loads, the accuracy would improve dramatically.

Hope this sheds a little light on why I would prefer the drive level detector in this application. The fact that it comes almost for free doesn't hurt either!
 
DickDV,
To fill you in on things. I've pretty much got things set up back in the shop to try and simulate this. My first approach is to try using what the drive can offer as far as protection. I'll let you know what comes about.
Tim
 
What current does a sensorless drive measure?

DickDV said:

Third, the slow increase in motor torque is only true for torque produced by current. When a jam occurs, the system inertia which includes the motor rotor, gearing, and the mass of the moving conveyor will produce a very rapid increase in force at the point of the jam due to rapid deceleration. I know of no method, mechanical or electrical, which will detect this at any point other than at the jam itself.

That is why the kinetic energy and energy dissipation question must be answered.


I've had experience with several similar systems including one particularly fragile expensive wire conveyor for cooling freshly baked loaves of bread. It didn't help that the whole thing was made of 316 stainless steel either. It wasn't a Mitsubishi drive but I used a similar current level detection system in the drive and, in very careful testing, routinely stopped the motor faster than any mechanical torque detector or motor lead current detector.

Strain guages don't have any delay. It is the amplifiers and detection devices that do. Quality detection devices with sampling at frequent intervals will be very fast. An analog differentiator and comparator would be faster.


While this testing was done on a plain-jane V/Hz drive, if you happen to be using a sensorless vector drive, the response will be even faster.

In fact, if you are using a high performance sensorless vector drive, it is likely that the drive regulator is rapidly solving for motor torque on a continuous basis and your detection can actually be done with torque rather than current. I doubt that this would make any practical different at higher motor loads, but, at light loads, the accuracy would improve dramatically.

Yes, sensorless drives have models inside in their state space algorithm that keeps track of what the torque should be and this data is always available inside the drive, but this is different from measuring the current.



Hope this sheds a little light on why I would prefer the drive level detector in this application. The fact that it comes almost for free doesn't hurt either!

I agree IF the drive can provide this data from an internal model, but measuring a RMS current does not hack it.
 
Use a proximity switch to detect if the part is present.

If it is not, shut the drive down.

We use proxes on the ends of cylinders to grab parts also. They travel on the same linear axis as the cylinder stroke.

Don't know what yours looks like though?
 
Jnelson said:
Use a proximity switch to detect if the part is present.

If it is not, shut the drive down

"Cousin" John has a good point there!... :D

As Tim stated in the original post (3 pages ago!), what usually causes the jam is a part falling off.

1.) Part falls off
2.) Jam occurs

Why wait for step 2 when step 1 comes first?

Good thinkin' John!

beerchug

-Eric
 
Ok,WARNING A LOT OF RAMBLING ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE
I was hoping I wouldn't have to explain the process in detail, but it looks like I am.
This machine has 5 stations to it. The first station is just what I call a holding station. The holding station is nothing but a jig to hold the part that got tranfered from the machine thats next to it.
Ok, this station has a prox that detects that a part is present in the holding station. When the prox gets made, this tells the transfer to tranfer the part to the next station #2. This station has some actuating cylinders that clamp up the part and a robot that's assigned to each station,"except #1 because its just a holding station", begins a welding process.
The transfer process consist of four cyclinders that lift the parts out of the jigs and the transfer moves them to the next station. Now, station #2,3,4,5 are all set up the same way. A robot for each and a prox to detect whether a part is present. If no part is detected then there is no robot start at that particular station.
I have absolutly considered putting proxes on the moving portion of the transfer. After long thought and also seeing other situations that causes a crash, I have came to the conclusion that yes this will help when a part falls off, but it will not do anything for the other situations. Instead of reacting to each situation, I thought I would protect the transfer from doing damage when it did crash.
Let me explain my reasoning. There is a problem that lies with the last station. This station, when the robot gets done welding will eject the part out of the system. Atually it ejects it out a window and onto a table, waiting for inspection by the operator. I've got sensors on the window saying if the part didn't get ejected then it might still be in the last jig. If the transfer moves another part into the last station and there is already a part there...CRASH!! I think I got that problem taken care of with programming.
I also have fixed the program to where the plc follows each part. If the part is detected in the holding station then the plc will follow that part throughout the process until it gets ejected out of the system. The system faults out if the part doesn't get detected when the transfer goes through its transfer movement. This fault occurs when the transfer sets the part down and the prox doesn't get made. The fault is there to alert the operator that there is a problem. The plc looks at this as "Hey I welded the part at station #4, but when I transfered it to station #5, I didn't detect that it got there". I even had to go back through the program to make sure the operator doesn't just reset the fault and restart the system. They actually have to reposition the part, so it will make the prox before it will restart.
Back to the last station problem. If the part didn't get ejected out of this station then the system faults out. This is to keep the transfer from putting another part on top of another. Your probably wondering what is the problem then. Well, it has to do with OE,..OPERATOR ERROR. If they get the fault saying that a part wasn't detected when it got ejected out of the system. They have the opportunity to break the PE with there hand to let the plc know its ok to transfer now. What actually happens is when the last station went through its ejecting process the part gets hung up somewhere and doesn't make it out of the jig. Yet, its not touching the prox anymore, so the transfer has no idea that there is already or still a part there....,CRASH.
There are other situations that occur. This is just one of them, so my thoughts are I cannot make it idiot proof, but maybe I can limit the damage when this crash occurs. BTW, a prox will not detect a wrench left in the system.
Tim
 
Sorry, Peter, but I disagree, based on years of field experience. A simple V/Hz drive that measures motor lead current directly (RMS or otherwise) absolutely is fast enough for jam detection and damage control. A motor model as is found in sensorless vector systems is NOT required.
 
OK, So how fast can one get RMS current?

DickDV said:
Sorry, Peter, but I disagree, based on years of field experience. A simple V/Hz drive that measures motor lead current directly (RMS or otherwise) absolutely is fast enough for jam detection and damage control. A motor model as is found in sensorless vector systems is NOT required.

Calculating RMS current takes rectifying and filtering the current over several cycles. This takes too long.
 

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