Rockwell...

I've spend 8 hours trying to install RSlogix 5000 V19, Rslinx, and rsnetworx for device net on a fresh win 7 vm install. The freshly supplied Rockwell DVD PN-262969 (V21.03.01) apparently has an outdated RSlinx according to rsnetworx which is on the same DVD. Terrible setup / install experience closely followed by terrible support. The Rockwell telephone line simply disconnected me for selecting the "post sales support" option. Supplier tells me to go download RSlinx from the website, which as I said above is completely un-navigable, and clear as mud. Also I have a connection speed that would take days to download 300MBs. Regardless, I still haven't found rslinx for download anywhere on the site. Highly disappointed that nothing has improved in the last 4 years (last time I installed Rockwell software). Even more disappointed to see that RS Studio dropped support for older PLCs. I found no mention of that anywhere in the supplied documentation, and only found out after installing said ****, and then looking for support via google. The RA website is about as clear as warm bubbling sewage. I guess rockwell do not want to stay in business?

Next time I'll recommend we go with Siemens, and stay away from this bloated, incompatible mess.

I did try to post my rant to the web feedback section on RA's website but the web server threw an exception error and didn't accept it. Seems fitting.


I doubt anyone from Rockwell will read this, and I doubt they would care even if they did.
:angr:

I'm sure I have come across it in the past where if you install a version of Logix 5000 and you current version of RSLinx is newer than the version available at the time your Logix 5000 came out it will give this error. I don't recall it causing any problems though and was able to continue the installation and afterwards everything worked fine.

Surely you have just gone to the support tab on the Rockwell Site, then to Software Downloads?

I'm almost 100% sure that RSLinx is in the Free Downloads section? You just have to search RSLinx in the window that pops up?

Yeah I would have thought so too. I've been on the website and couldn't get Classic linx to download. The product compat and download site just confuses me. I could see the files but every time it just gave out some October patches upgrade in the downloads. I only have a limited 3G connection so can't spend all day downloading files. I seriously couldn't get it to a point to download lol. Maybe I'm just dumb.

I was saved at the last minute by a collegue who had suffered a similar fate and happened to have an official rslinx dvd version 3.60 vs 3.51 which we received this week as a supposedly "new" dvd.

I have a friend that experienced similar problems - 2 days to install RSLogix5000, as a new customer in support, including multiple phone calls to tech support. Ridiculous!

There are a lot of PLC vendors that are more customer friendly and don't have over-bloated software. Choose a smaller vendor and you get top-notch support and products that are just as reliable, functional (if not more functional), and lower cost. We use SoftPLC.

Queue a bunch of Rockwell supporters telling you how not to judge them to harshly and that thier products are the best and if you could only........ you know the rest.

While your troubles are obviously real I can't quite figure out how you get yourselves into such trouble with a software install. I have been a Rockwell user for over 20 years. I have had to perform conservatively 15-20 installs of various pieces of Rockwell (or Allen-Bradley) software over that time and I have never EVER had to call anyone for help with an install, much less tech support. The stuff just installed. Follow the steps and life is good. So how you got so far down the rabbit hole is beyond me.

Granted, tech support is not good. Too many layers and the initial layer or two are book readers doing what you could do yourself. And I would even grant you the price/performance argument. There are better values out there, although it isn't a bad "everything for everybody" solution with a pretty good focus on the lowest common denominator.

The price/performance sweet spot is definitely with the smaller players. In truth the price/performance sweet spot isn't with PLCs but people get a little skittish when you mention that.

Keith

Badger said:

Queue a bunch of Rockwell supporters telling you how not to judge them to harshly and that thier products are the best and if you could only........ you know the rest.

Click to expand...

Hi guys!!! Thanks for the invitation!

www.rockwellautomation.com --> Support --> Software Downloads. Seems pretty easy to find. If you can't rely on your internet service to allow you to download large files, well you might want to re-think that. Not just for Rockwell either.

Does the DVD still come with all previous versions still? We get the toolkit hard drive now and they don't include previous releases anymore. I assume due to the large file size. So I am wondering how you were able to install v19 with the v21 installer however I'm assuming your DVDs have them all but a question to ask.

Personally, I just download what I need and don't even bother with the toolkit hard drive anymore. Easier to build my own library of what I actually use, plus it allows me to stay updated. Just download v24 last week.

Best of luck, I never seem to have activation issues or install problems. Guess I'm just lucky.

I hate the Rockwell website, and it absolutely gets me steaming when someone says "just go to the website!" I know where the software downloads are but to someone who is unfamiliar with it and doesn't know it's hidden on a page in a pull-down menu under Support, it's ludicrous. Also, the backwards incompatibility between Linx and Networx is because they made a massive leap with EDS file processing, so they went from RSLogix 2.59 to 3.60. Likewise, the RSNetworx packages went from version 11 to version 21. I would never go back to a pre-3.60 version of RSlinx, and I don't even bother with RSNetworx, but I understand some people have to. The correct way to go about it is to install RSLinx 3.6+ FIRST and THEN install Networx 21+

Rockwell doesn't have to have a good website because they dominate the US market. As an integrator, 99 times out of 100 a customer will specifically request Allen-Bradley PLCs in their machine/process. It's not because they're the best, or that they're particularly good; it's because it's what everybody here is used to. Switching platforms carry a lot of hidden costs, and a lot of companies would rather deal with Rockwell's idiosyncracies than risk having a machine get extra downtime due to a PLC learning curve.

Rockwell is kind of like Apple. Apple doesn't make the best product, but people buy it because they've bought into the Apple ecosystem and don't want to have to re-buy all of their content. In the same manner, the average facility in the US is Rockwell-based because long ago they bought into the Rockwell ecosystem and don't want to have to re-buy all of their hardware, retrain their technicians, and redevelop all of their programs.

without going into the "weirdness" debate - here's a tip which has helped me ...

I NEVER try to install off of a DVD, CD, USB drive, etc. ...

instead I ALWAYS copy the install folder (usually 1-4 GB) onto my C:\ drive ... then I run the installation (Setup.exe, etc.) from the hard drive ...

basic idea: if there's something wrong with the installation disk - or with your computer's ability to read it correctly - then it's best to find out about that BEFORE you start down the installation route ...

then once the installation is complete - I delete the install folder to regain that space ...

this method "helps" for me ...

note that I'm NOT saying that this will make every installation go smoothly - but I find that I have a LOT less problems this way ...

I was legitimately shocked at how bush league my entire Rockwell experience has been on every level.

I went from working with a very advanced and polished platform and always struggling to get people to use it instead of AB to a new job where we use AB 99% of the time. I was excited to see how the other half lived and see how easy AB was to use (it's what we always heard from people evaluating my old platform). After starting up my first machine, I am thinking about going back to the headhunter to find a non-AB job. It's like I went from a surgeon to doing arts and crafts with safety scissors.

CapinWinky said:

I was legitimately shocked at how bush league my entire Rockwell experience has been on every level.

I went from working with a very advanced and polished platform and always struggling to get people to use it instead of AB to a new job where we use AB 99% of the time. I was excited to see how the other half lived and see how easy AB was to use (it's what we always heard from people evaluating my old platform). After starting up my first machine, I am thinking about going back to the headhunter to find a non-AB job. It's like I went from a surgeon to doing arts and crafts with safety scissors.

Click to expand...

Would you mind putting this into more context?

For myself, give me the Rockwell hardware and PLC's any day of the week. Anything to do with FactoryTalk SE/ME...etc I can do without.

I used to work with primarily B&R products, I'll do a little comparison:

Software needed to start-up a new machine panel of some complexity:
Rockwell - Logix/Studio 5000, BootP, ControlFlash, DriveExecutive, Networx Linx, and FactoryTalk View Studio are pretty much the minimum.
B&R - Automation Studio

Using a new product for the first time:
Rockwell - Navigate terrible website to try and download/install AOP/EDS/Firmware. Google search for how new product is configured and used in the program.
B&R - Open Automation Studio, go to Tools -> Upgrades, download upgrade related to new product. Insert item into hardware tree, click on it and press F1 for comprehensive documentation.

Replacing a drive:
Rockwell - Power drive up, use BootP to set IP for Eth/IP devices, install desired firmware to match project, for VFD, use drive executive to set drive parameters, install in machine.
B&R - Install in machine.

Starting up a new panel:
Rockwell - BootP all the Eth/IP devices, update all the firmwares you need to update, drive executive all the drives, do some power cycling, connect to PLC, transfer the program, transfer program to Panelview, troubleshoot.
B&R - Connect to PLC, transfer the program, wait for PLC to set all the IP addresses, firmware versions, drive parameters and the HMI to load up to the terminal from the PLC, troubleshoot.

Version Control:
Rockwell - Export project as L5X file before every commit. Weed through the thousands of found differences from each and every variable value when trying to merge. Accept that it is too difficult to do real version control repositories and just copy and paste to a network drive.
B&R - built in Subversion and Git support. Project is already saved in organized file tree of source code and XML configuration files. Easily manage project versions and multiple programmers on the same project.

Programming Environment:
Rockwell - Studio 5000 has pretty good ladder editor, and terrible Structured Text editor. Uses random words instead of programming wide accepted terms (tag instead of variable, instruction instead of function, etc). No pointers. No table editor for variables or structures and non-IEC compliant method for defining said tags and structures. Shocking small number of built in libraries/functions. No inline NOT in ladder.
B&R - Possibly the best text based editors I've ever encountered (better than CoDeSyS, Visual Studio, and maybe even Eclipse) making programming in ST orders of magnitude easier than Studio 5000. Text or table editing of variable and structure definition for speedy re-use and advanced users. Can execute batch scripts to automate programming before and after compiler execution. Can include non-program related documentation into project, like datasheets, specifications, and general notes. Built in libraries do everything to advanced PID and signal processing and more (orders of magnitude more functions available).

HMI:
Rockwell - I don't want to get into too much detail on why I loath FactoryTalk View Studio, but I wonder if they ever plan to updated beyond the Windows 95 appearance. The only things I like are the easy animation of objects and the ability to build an expression instead of just using a single tag for most anything.
B&R - Easy support for .Net based HMI, Web based HMI hosted on the PLC's own web server, or their native Visual Components (VC for short). VC is hosted by the PLC and a PLC can host many independent VC displays connected to both touch screens or as VNC servers (provides built in backup if your touchscreen dies and provides supervisor back-end HMI over factory network). Built in unit conversion and better graphics capability. Admittedly VC is bad at animation.

Website:
Rockwell - Hard to navigate and requires different login info for some sections. All product information is in scattered PDFs
B&R - Easy to use product catalog gives you detailed info on any product. Enter a partial or full part number in the search to easily find technical details, 3D models, etc. Enter a serial number to find out product and warranty information and if it was originally part of a set. Easily find any download you want in a clearly marked download area or on the side bar for related downloads from any product description page. The best website in the industry that I've come across.

The list goes on, but you get the idea. The long and short is B&R and a number of high tech competitors are far more polished and capable and cost less. Meanwhile, Rockwell keeps capability low to keep the learning curve low and rides on industry inertia.

CapinWinky said:

Version Control:
Rockwell - Export project as L5X file before every commit. Weed through the thousands of found differences from each and every variable value when trying to merge. Accept that it is too difficult to do real version control repositories and just copy and paste to a network drive.
B&R - built in Subversion and Git support. Project is already saved in organized file tree of source code and XML configuration files. Easily manage project versions and multiple programmers on the same project.

Click to expand...

The lack of easy version control is probably the thing that has surprised me most since entering the controls industry. Since Rockwell ladder code just falls back to text anyway (XIO/XIC, etc), it seems like an easy feature to have added. The fact that it's still missing says there must just be no customer demand for it, which just seems shortsighted to me.

"I've spend 8 hours trying to install RSlogix 5000 V19, Rslinx, and rsnetworx for device net on a fresh win 7 vm install. The freshly supplied Rockwell DVD PN-262969 (V21.03.01) apparently has an outdated RSlinx according to rsnetworx which is on the same DVD. Terrible setup / install experience closely followed by terrible support."

Move along folks, nothing to see here...