Slightly OT: Smoking Transformers

demmons

Member
Join Date
Jan 2009
Location
PA
Posts
87
I ran into an interesting situation:

We received a machine that had three single phase transformers mounted next to each other on the floor of the panel with a metal stud coming up through the middle of each. A steel flat bar with a hole for each stud held all three transformers down.

The transformers were wired together to go from 220 Delta to 380 Wye. Upon appying power we began to see smoke within seconds. The transformers were not hot but the studs holding them down were.

There were no shorts on the transformers, the transformers were wired correctly, they were isolated from the metal by rubber, and upon removing the clamp bar, the problem went away.

My coworker suggested magnetism was causing the heat. Any ideas?

I have attached a sketch of the layout if I have been unclear.
 
I ran into an interesting situation:

We received a machine that had three single phase transformers mounted next to each other on the floor of the panel with a metal stud coming up through the middle of each. A steel flat bar with a hole for each stud held all three transformers down.

The transformers were wired together to go from 220 Delta to 380 Wye. Upon appying power we began to see smoke within seconds. The transformers were not hot but the studs holding them down were.

There were no shorts on the transformers, the transformers were wired correctly, they were isolated from the metal by rubber, and upon removing the clamp bar, the problem went away.

My coworker suggested magnetism was causing the heat. Any ideas?

I have attached a sketch of the layout if I have been unclear.

The steel clamp rods and bars and the floor of the machine were acting as a transformer loop secondary (shorted to boot). While the coupling might not have been great, you had a several turns to one turn ratio, so the amps circulating in the steel would have been high. As you know, steel is not that great a conductor and would have generated heat from resistance heating. In addition, steel will heat from the magnetic hysteresis effect up until curie point (red heat).

Opening the circuit (removing the bar) stopped the current circulating and causing the heating.

You may still have some small amounts of heat being generated by the rods sitting in the transformer cores, but I suspect it won't be much.

Brian
 
From looking at pad mount 3 phase transformers it appeared to me that each set of windings (concentric wound primary and secondary) magnetic cores were mounted to a common steel frame. So I went to a transformer manufacturer here in Seattle and asked why they do not short out thru the frame. THe answer was "they cant". Maybe I did not know enough to ask the question in an intelligent manner but once again it is hard to ask knowledgable questions when you do not have the knowledge and are trying to aquire it. Seems like a catch 22 dilemna.

Anyway if this were my transformer I think I would check to ensure properly connected
2 Disconnect everything and do meggar checks between all combinations of phases and pri sec windings and all to ground.
3. reconnect and check voltages both phase to phase and phase to ground.
Something sounds wrong on this.

Dan Bentler
THEN I would double check
 
I went to a transformer manufacturer here in Seattle and asked why they do not short out thru the frame. THe answer was "they cant".

Dan,

This quote from these people makes more sense to me (red text to highlight).

http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/power_loss.html
Eddy current loss
Eddy current losses occur whenever the core material is electrically conductive. Most ferromagnetic materials contain iron: a metal that has fairly low resistivity (roughly 10-7 Ω m). The problem is intuitively obvious if you consider that the magnetic field is contained within a 'circuit' or loop formed by the periphery of the core in the same way as it is contained within a turn on the windings. Around that periphery a current will be induced in the same way as it is in an ordinary turn which is shorted at its ends.
What is needed, then, is some method of increasing the resistance of the core to current flow without inhibiting the flow of magnetic flux. In mains transformers this is achieved by alloying the iron with about 3% of silicon. This lifts the resistivity to 4.5×10-7 Ω m. Depending upon the amount of silicon this material is called 'transformer iron', 'electrical iron' or 'armature iron'. The alternative name 'silicon steel' is a misnomer because steel is iron alloyed with carbon; and carbon does no good in a transformer core. The silicon does, though, increase the mechanical hardness of iron in the same way as carbon - try sawing up a transformer core and you'll discover this quickly.
laminations.png
In any resistive circuit the power is proportional to the square of the applied voltage. The induced voltage is itself proportional to f×B and so the eddy losses are proportional to f2B2. The flux is also related to the size of the loop. Figure PLM shows how the idea of lamination is used to reduce the power losses caused by eddy currents in mains transformers. The same principle applies to motors and generators too. Using a solid iron core (as in cross-section B) results in a large circulating current. So, instead, the core is made up of a stack of thin (~0.5 millimetre) sheets (cross section C). Here I have shown only four laminations but there will normally be many more. The lines of magnetic flux can still run around the core within the plane of the laminations. The situation for the eddy currents is different. The surface of each sheet carries an insulating oxide layer formed during heat treatment. This prevents current from circulating from one lamination across to its neighbors.


Demmons,

If a clamp is still desired to hold the transformers steady, some insulating bushings to insulate the metal rods/studs from the flat bar should do the trick.
 
Last edited:
OK thanks BUT I knew the core is laminated to prevent eddy currents in core material. The quesion I have is if all 3 phases are on same core even if it is laminated to prevent current flowing thru core
OR three independent cores bolted to a common steel frame which is how they appear to be built
why do not the three phases magnetically couple and short out?

Dan
 
This might be a stupid question but the metal stud & steel bars arn't just there for transport and required to be removed before energising?
 
The bar was not just for transport as the manufacturer mounted a DIN rail and some terminal blocks to it for wiring the main power.

The transformers are toroidal.
 
The transformers are toroidal.

And there's the problem. The manufacturer really should have known better. The studs through the center, in combination with the flat bar, work as a shorted turn. The solution is to use insulating bushings on the studs, or use a non-conducting bar.
 
Thanks to all for the answers. I am having some non conductive restraints made to hold the transformers in place indiviually.

Now if I can just get the smell of white smoke out of my clothes...(y)
 
You should be able to use regular steel hold-downs if you don't run the vertical rods through the center of the transformers. In other words, the OEM setup would have been fine if they would have put the studs in between the transformers instead of inside them.

Brian
 

Similar Topics

I have been tinkering with a little DIY remote access stuff lately, prompted by some recommendations and challenges on this forum. To my...
Replies
5
Views
1,830
I need a little sanity check and hopefully advice from some experienced users. I have a mechanism that we're driving with a JVL MAC3000...
Replies
4
Views
1,134
Looking for an economic way to monitor kWh and kVARh on multiple circuits (up to 10) in a single distribution board. The Square D Power Logic...
Replies
3
Views
1,705
Does anyone make a "positioning cylinder" like the Festo DDPC but with a digital encoder feedback ? I have an application where a 0.0005 mm...
Replies
5
Views
1,755
This is a little OT, but I would like some general input. I have an machine control cabinet with an HMI as well as numerous standalone LED-bulb...
Replies
15
Views
6,510
Back
Top Bottom