Smoke/Fire Detection Sensors

I am working on a project involving a remote water pumping station. The station utilizes 500hp, 4160VAC motors in addition to other lower-voltage systems.

My concern is: if a fire should break out (wiring fault, someone's cigarette in the trash can, etc) we probably wouldn't be alerted until too late to save the station from significant damage. There is no fire detection equipment currently installed at this location, which was built in the 1980's.

What types of industrial smoke/fire detection sensors are commonly used in this type of application? or is this overkill?

The station's telemetry is monitored 24/7 from another station about 15 minutes away. Would it be reasonable to connect fire-detection equipment to our telemetry systems for alarm notification, or does NFPA require something else?

I'd appreciate any smoke/fire sensor recommendations/experiences you wish to share. Thanks!

Firedetection requires a fire-panel.

Better ask somebody who does this professionaly to cover this side of the story.

+1 to the above. You do NOT want to try and put in a roll-your-own fire detection/suppression system. Find a company that does fire systems commercially, and engage their services.

That being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using indication from a proprietary fire system to give you indication and feedback using your SCADA/PLC/telemetry system. Just make sure that it's just that - indication and feedback, NOT control.

Think of it like safety circuits vs. control circuits. Sure, your safety system will indicate to the PLC when an e/stop is pressed, and your SCADA will tell you which one and where it is. And an e/stop can (should) have an effect on your control system (i.e. it should drop it out). But the safety system is a completely separate set of controls, and just interfaces with the rest of your system - your control system cannot control your safety system.

Disclaimer: safety PLC's are excluded from this argument, because a "fire safety" PLC doesn't exist, as far as I'm aware

Thanks ivo and asf. I appreciate the input.

We typically use uv/ir fire detectors (det-tronics is one brand) and heat detectiors (usually just an rtd or a Fenwal device), tie them in to the control system for local shutdown, shunt-trip, etc and remote alarming.

RET said:

We typically use uv/ir fire detectors (det-tronics is one brand) and heat detectiors (usually just an rtd or a Fenwal device), tie them in to the control system for local shutdown, shunt-trip, etc and remote alarming.

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Technically no problem but what with the legal side of the story:
e.g. will the insurance company appreciate your effors as 'professional' conforming the local regulation?

Is the regular tech-guy also competent enough to choose the right detector, mount them correct, place enough detector conforming your local regulation?

For us, Factory Mutual absolutely requires a fire/safety system installed and maintained by licensed fire/safety specialists. FM and the local Fire Department also have to review and approve any additions or modification.

Our last project had a proper fire panel system installed with a dry contact tied to an input to the plc. This is what I would recommend.

being that electricity is involved - water is definitely out.
being that there is 4160 involved, any powder and foam system is out, at 4160 the dust can cause are flash and the foam also.

As suggested, get a licensed FM approved installer to do the site survey, risk assessment, specifications, and installation.

james

ASF said:

Disclaimer: safety PLC's are excluded from this argument, because a "fire safety" PLC doesn't exist, as far as I'm aware

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I've seen safety PLCs that advertised support for "Burner Management Systems", but I suspect that is a completely different problem from actual fire alarm type systems.

FM approved fire panel by professional and insured installers. With the legalities, better safe than sorry. From that panel you can interface to any control system for annunciation.

ivo.maenen said:

Technically no problem but what with the legal side of the story:
e.g. will the insurance company appreciate your effors as 'professional' conforming the local regulation?

Is the regular tech-guy also competent enough to choose the right detector, mount them correct, place enough detector conforming your local regulation?

Click to expand...

It must be hell living in a place where every damn thing is regulated to the hilt.

USA!

I've used Detronics in the past and they have some really nice stuff for fire and gas detection.

I think the main question is what will you do with the signal. Will someone go over and have a look at it (could be a false alarms)... are you linking that directly to the fire department?

Either way, having someone to specify the best type and combination for that application would be a good idea... mostly from a liability point of view.

RET,

no offense to anyone meant in this post.

Several years ago I felt the same way, to much regulation.
At my current location, I have seen videos of are flash. 2 years ago I saw the visor of a 460 arc flash involving a mcc bucket. the helmet did its job, no injuries.

2 months ago I saw first hand the 4160 panel and tools used in an incident at another facility.

that was a very sobering experience, I saw the ppe (what's left of it)!
I do not wish what happened to him on anyone!

I am more cautious than ever and all panels are being re-evaluated.


james

All of the reasons given for a dedicated, purpose built panel are spot on however the one that’s being left out is fire department response times. If you have your own detection system then when the detector goes off, it will notify your company and then you will need to call the fire department. If you have a monitored fire alarm system then when the detector goes off you’re cutting out one leg of the loop reducing the time it takes to notify the fire department. Even if we’re talking about 30 seconds to a minute (probably more like two minutes) the amount of growth a fire can do in that time frame could mean the difference between repairing the facility or replacing it.