Firejo
Member
Really? Everyone? Am I reading this wrong or are you say that everyone believes that Rockwell Automation is ripping off all of their customers?
OT: Can someone explain Rockwell versioning system
- Thread starter fredz0003
- Start date
Really? Everyone? Am I reading this wrong or are you say that everyone believes that Rockwell Automation is ripping off all of their customers?
cardosocea
Member
Not PLCNovice, but in my experience dealing with them, yes. They provide some of the worst value in the automation market.
cardosocea
Member
Value is not cost or features. It's a measure of both...
cost, features, availability, durability, documentation, quality of support, availability of training, product lifecycle...
There is SOOOOOO much though that goes into something like engineering a PLC platform. Rockwell is an expensive option, and I don't feel that they totally justify their hardware pricing, but it is hands-down some of the toughest stuff out there PLC-wise.
Besides, have you USED Rockwell's ladder editor? I have not found better.
Firejo
Member
I could not disagree more. Yes pricey, however I believe they represent a good value especially when looking at overall systems. Their products last a long time. You can easily find systems with PLC5's, SLC5/03's (hell even 501's and 502's), MicroLogix 1000's, L5555's ect... still running strong. Their PAC line, in some respects, is second to none. You don't become one of the dominate automation companies in the world if your products and services are a poor value, it's pretty much that simple.
Also, my main point was you can't say "everybody" even if you exclude novices. That simply isn't true.
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PLCnovice61
Member
OK a few people think they are good value, all the other millions don't.
That'll work with Siemens as long as the new PC you take it to has a similar enough arrangement of network interfaces.
Similar again with RSLinx - once you've assigned the path in the project, you can just click "go online" without ever opening RSLinx, as long as you left the Ethernet/IP driver name as default (which everyone does). Doesn't even matter if your network interface cards are completely different between PC's because that's saved in RSLinx as part of the driver setup.
I've had a customer email me a PLC program for a PLC5 that only had DH+ and had to be accessed via a control logix chassis on the other side of the plant that had a 1756-DHRIO module in it. I was already on the plant wifi, I opened the file, and clicked go online. It went online. Couldn't be easier.
I guess what I'm trying to get at with all this back and forth is that I don't agree with people dumping on either Siemens or AB as far superior to the other. They are extremely different to one another, and if you try to take an AB approach to a Siemens environment, or vice versa, you're going to have a hell of a time. I initially learned on Siemens, and now I'm an AB fan. I still use Siemens, and while I definitely prefer AB, it's not because it's objectively "better". It's just that the way AB expects you to use their systems aligns better with the way I think and process information. The way Siemens expect you to use their systems is equally valid, just extremely different, and while Siemens often frustrates me because "this is so much easier with AB", that's 99% of the time simply because I'm metaphorically trying to use an iPhone toolkit to work on a Samsung.
cardosocea
Member
cost - the most expensive in the market.
availability - depends on country. Where I am is the same as other brands (although I appreciate this is not the case in the US, for example).
durability - their PLC5's are indeed beasts, I doubt any of the new PLC's will last as long... check product lifecycle as to why.
quality of support - so far it's really not been worth the stupid amount of money we pay each year. I called 4 times:
- one was to be told that their not so old CPU's don't support Ethernet field IO (this is on CLX),
- another was to tell me that they don't know why their controlnet card drops the towel,
- another to be told to go buy a UPS because their IO locks up and needs pulling from a live backplate.
- Proper help on why the DH+ would be down.
25% hit rate is fantastically poor in my book.
- availability of training - not more or better than other brands, although the US may have a different landscape.
- product lifecycle - this is where they have consistently gone down. I would put them at the same level as Samsung (adjusted for the industry) with regards to this.
I have and it's a crutch... the reason why people think it's good is because they HAVE (or did until recently) to edit the program online. Give me the option to edit the subroutine offline and download that single routine on the run and the editor is not half as important as most people make it out to be.
I work on a Rockwell site that is moving to Siemens... so yes, I do work on their editor.
You are seriously downplaying marketing and the fact that humans are lazy and will choose what they know, not what is best value if it means they need to learn something new. Look throughout history and plenty of better products were put aside because of marketing. Rockwell's dominance is partly to do with that.
The two PC's may have completely different network cards. You configure the interface on the PC once (and come on, it's not really difficult, it's literally choose which type and network port to use) and it will use that to go online with whatever PLC r project you need to reach on that network.
Siemens leaves this configuration in the PC...
How is it that I need to do this part every time I need to open a project in a different computer?
If it's personal preference, so be it. There's nothing wrong with having a preference so long as one acknowledges the shortcomings and can deal with them easily.
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PLCnovice61
Member
l wonder how many people here have had to buy the software themselves( S or AB), without the ability to offset the cost to someone else.
If you had to pay $1000's for the software for a small job at home, or get free software and a far cheaper PLC, l think l know which way people would go, so in that situation l would say both S and AB are ripping people off (a, l meant not value for money).
But in saying that, l prefer to use AB software over Siemens, because like so many that aren't in Europe it is the one l have used the most, but l'm not saying it is the best.
If you had to pay $1000's for the software for a small job at home, or get free software and a far cheaper PLC, l think l know which way people would go, so in that situation l would say both S and AB are ripping people off (a, l meant not value for money).
But in saying that, l prefer to use AB software over Siemens, because like so many that aren't in Europe it is the one l have used the most, but l'm not saying it is the best.
sigmadelta
Member
I second this! Why should I have to be online to make modifications? The far better option to be able to do modifications away from the machine, maybe do some tests with a PLC simulator or test-bench PLC, then go to the machine, download your modifications without putting the CPU into STOP or affecting current data, and monitor the effects.
Correct me if I'm wrong... if I prepare program changes in a RSLogix 5000 program ahead of time, and then download, I have to download the entire program and STOP the CPU. This is really a pain. And this also affects the current data in the CPU as it would be replaced with the data values in your program.
With STEP 7, I can add or modify any parts of the program, and download all the modified blocks in one go, without stopping the CPU and without affecting current data.
cardosocea
Member
sigmadelta
Member
Rockwell doesn't do simulators... and when they do, it's charged separately.
...and you have to change the controller in your project from your actual CPU to the Emulate CPU in the case of RSLogix 5000 / Emulate 5000. This is a step backwards from their RSLogix 500 platform!
No they do emulation.
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