Good news and bad news

sparkytex

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Jun 2013
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As you know I recently accepted the position to train as systems automation and control tech. So far I love the challenges and frying my brain and pulling out my hair trying to figure things out. I was chosen for this job to train under the current tech as he is 66 years old and seriously knows his stuff when it comes to PLC's, HMI, and communications. However he has refused to train me stating he does not have time nor gets paid to train people. This makes my job quite difficult as there is so much to learn in the automation field, and being 26 I haven't been in the control side of things very long.

I hold no hard feelings as I understand where he comes from but never the less I wont let this bring me down, I chose to be in automation for a reason, I really like it. I just found out that he will be going for a job interview else where and I would imagine he will be hired as he is a talented programmer and could be an asset to any company with his experience. This leaves me alone to take over the reins, which is a great opportunity for me but also at the same time a huge undertaking and responsibility.

I have several training sessions booked with automationtraining.ca as I have a lot of ground to cover with the various PLC's and HMI's at our plant. The problem is the courses are quite spread out as the ones I need i.e rslogix5, slc 500, rslogix5000, Invensys wonderware intouch ect.. are only available at certain times. In the mean time I'll be given projects that will need to be completed and I'm sure I'll need help on. So in the next little while if you guys don't mind I'll be asking several questions to help me out.

This site and its members have helped me so much already and I'm very thankful for that and hope I can receive further assistance and eventually be able to be on the other side of things offering my advice to some one in my position on plctalk.net. thanks, brian
 
The guy sounds like a real Arse to me. Let him go to his next job and good riddance to him. You will likely pick it up easier without him than with him if he holds that kind of attitude.

Does not get paid to train people? You get paid to do what the company paying you asks you to do and if training is what they ask you to do then he does get paid to train people.

I have worked with a lot of people like this before. best thing to do is help him pack.
 
It reminds me my own situation when I started learning about PLCs and HMIs in my new job. There were moments I was about to quit. Fortunately I didn't, and I enjoy what I do!
I would talk with your supervisor and make them aware of your situation.
This forum has been very, very, very helpful to me, so this is the good news for you!

I wish you the best!
 
In a few years I'll be in the older gentleman's position. I, on the other hand, will consider it my prime responsibility to pass on as much as I know. I just hope I'll be able to do the job well.
 
Maybe the older fellow found out the younger trainee makes more money than he does :)
 
I knew a guy who was the Refrigeration mechanic where I used to work. He had been to training and knows a lot about Ammonia refrigeration systems, a lot more than his boss--the maintenance supervisor--does (some context, that maintenance supervisor once told me--someone with no certification or training--to replace a pressure transducer on an ammonia line, if you're not familiar, you need permits and certified people to do that, it's the law).

Anyway, there were some personality clashes, and the refrig. mechanic kept being passed up for promotion. When he had worked there for about 13 years, they promoted an entry-level maintenance mechanic who knew nothing about refrigeration to be his boss, and they expected him to train him. He refused and found another job. But honestly, I don't blame him. Ammonia refrigeration is not just something you get thrown into and learn as you go. That stuff is extremely dangerous and education is a necessity (and not just a four hour introductory class).

I know personalities can affect decisions, but if you're a maintenance manager the smooth operation of your plant should be priority ONE. Passing up a qualified mechanic for promotion because he can have a snarky attitude sometimes in favor of a greenhorn novice who has no business near any Ammonia system and thinking it will work out because the qualified mechanic would LOVE to train his boss is just stupid.

I guess how this relates is that I wonder if from his perspective, the company is asking him to train his replacement.

From my perspective, I honestly hate training people. Especially when I'm trying to do a job at the same time. It's amazing how much stuff you pick up over the years and then you're expected to just chuck that at someone in a few weeks. It's tough to do.
 
I can see both sides of this. I have people who work for me I train. The down side is that I can not show them everything the moment they want to see it. I have other responsibilities.

That said early in my career I worked with the senior types who figured they had better things to do than train me. I still learned from them. Training does not have to be formal, just like with my Dad in the garage, grabbing tools for him and watching what he was doing helped alot. The most important thing I learned from my Dad was when to ask questions. I also learned its real important to ask the right questions. Don't ask what someone is doing, ask can they show you what they are doing, then watch. Sounds silly but works great. Also finding ways to make the senior guy's day easier frees up more time for training. I worked with one guy who knew robotic welding like no other. When he would set up a cell I would got find test material. Since he did not have to spend the time on that he would slow down and take me thru the steps and show me what to look for. Also since I would scrap out the test pieces he would walk with me and review what he had just done. I found that was the time to ask questions because I had enough info to ask the right questions. Other engineers at the plant were surprised that he showed me his "secrets". The real secret was I gave him the time to show me. Don't write this guy off yet, he may be just grumbling and looking to see if you are worth the time, show him you are and if he still doesn't teach you anything you really have not lost anything.
 
Hello Spakytex.
I myself was in a similar situation to you. I am an industrial electrician with years of control experience but in my world most of the time the well dressed engineer would come on site , plug in his computer and do the glory work after I wired the systems. I had an understanding of the programming side but no practical experience. I applied to a large bakery that has a lot of old automation set up and some newer stuff as well. After getting hired as an electrician I learned that the previous automation tech of 17 years had left the company. I was offered the position and some automation training with the same guys you are getting training from but still very intimidated of the tasks required with nobody in the plant with any plc or control system knowledge to ask for help. That was a couple years ago now and I am very comfortable in this job now. Some courses and a lot of weekend studiying PLCs gave me the edge I needed. Still not even close to an expert I love the daily challenges I am faced with and learning something new every day. You will have stressfull and confusing days but those days will MAKE you learn. Good luck.
 
Well, all depends on the definition of "training"...

For me, training is all about the persons desire to learn. I'll train anyone most of what I know based on their desire to learn. Are they asking the right questions? Are they challenging themselves? Is "training" I am doing helping me out too? Are they doing their homework (much like I constantly do)?

I can can talk about two individuals on my last project.

1 - Individual A, he was very green but ambitious. Worked as many hours as I did, never asked to leave until I was ready too. Pretty sharp, but yet too quick to act at times and it bit him. He asked questions, proved that I could give him tasks and he could complete them with minimal direction. When he had troubles he knew when to ask for help, he also learned to admit when he was wrong. I could not have completed that project without his hard work.

2 - Individual B, he had been with the company for 5+ years and wanted to get into software. He expected to have training come to him, he left the job site early, never asked a single question (this was a long start up, plenty of time to learn). He left me hanging on weekends, left me hanging to fix his electrical design errors and was never able to complete tasks given to him. The then would complain about not being trained on software.

Needless to say, whom did I "train"? Granted, my title is not "trainer", but I had people in my past take me on as I proved I was worthy so I try and do the same. Training is a two-way street, anyone who recognizes that I will train, anyone whom thinks my hard-earned knowledge should just be handed out freely...well good luck to ya.
 
Yes I also see it from both sides, and like I said I hold no hard feelings. He did ask for someone to help him out and train to take over his position as he was retiring soon. I think he was expecting to get some one with all the training up front, but as it stood the company wanted to hire internally to take over the job and not some one from outside already qualified. I was a maintenance electrician, then to lead hand, then offered supervisor position. I didn't want the supervisor position as there was to much politics in the management department. Needless to say I did my best to prove to the company that I could accept responsibility and was worthy of the position.

It would be nice to learn from the guy because he knows so much and can always figure out any problem thrown his way. But I understand he's a busy man at the same time. I'm more than willing to put in the long hours to learn and help the mill out when its down, because really that's when you get the real hands on knowledge when something needs to be fixed. I'm glad there's so many people on here that understand the situation i'm in and are willing to help me out when ever I ask questions, means a lot to me.

My supervisor knows that he will not train me and the situation im in. All he cares about is that i'm here learning everyday trying my best to become better at my job, hes really good that way. I am completing the jobs given to me, they just take a while for me to learn first. I definitely can say im lucky that I have the backing from the company and that their willing to wait for me to come up to speed with the training. and no I definitely don't make even close to what this guy makes! lol.
 
Yes I also see it from both sides, and like I said I hold no hard feelings. He did ask for someone to help him out and train to take over his position as he was retiring soon. I think he was expecting to get some one with all the training up front, but as it stood the company wanted to hire internally to take over the job and not some one from outside already qualified. I was a maintenance electrician, then to lead hand, then offered supervisor position. I didn't want the supervisor position as there was to much politics in the management department. Needless to say I did my best to prove to the company that I could accept responsibility and was worthy of the position.

It would be nice to learn from the guy because he knows so much and can always figure out any problem thrown his way. But I understand he's a busy man at the same time. I'm more than willing to put in the long hours to learn and help the mill out when its down, because really that's when you get the real hands on knowledge when something needs to be fixed. I'm glad there's so many people on here that understand the situation i'm in and are willing to help me out when ever I ask questions, means a lot to me.

My supervisor knows that he will not train me and the situation im in. All he cares about is that i'm here learning everyday trying my best to become better at my job, hes really good that way. I am completing the jobs given to me, they just take a while for me to learn first. I definitely can say im lucky that I have the backing from the company and that their willing to wait for me to come up to speed with the training. and no I definitely don't make even close to what this guy makes! lol.

Is he not willing to train you in the sense of sitting down and explaining things to you but is open to other methods like just having you shadow him and he explains things to you as he goes?
 
no, he seems to get irritated and short with me and almost doesn't want me watching. The guy is nice to me when were bs'ing, but as soon as I ask him a question he gets kinda bitter and short with me and tells me I need training and its not his job to train me. Which is his decision and if he does not want to pass info down to me than that's his choice and i'll respect that and still be civil with him. I just stay away from him and try my best to learn what I can
 
I get to be the old grouchy guy from what I'm hearing. Actually it's a good thing. I can teach, but it's been so long I don't remember the basics as "basics". We're talking about making a technician out of straw and mud.
 
I get to be the old grouchy guy from what I'm hearing. Actually it's a good thing. I can teach, but it's been so long I don't remember the basics as "basics". We're talking about making a technician out of straw and mud.

I have found when training that stuff you just know and no longer think about are sometimes forgotten when trying to teach someone. I know I spend a good deal of apologizing because I didn't mention a "basic" item mainly because I didn't really think about it.
 
Hi

I know it's no help to you but I was there and now 15 ish years later I feel I am much better for it. He did me a favour but he does not know or did he mean it.
I was serving my time as a spark and I asked this fellow what was the box in the panel, he's answer was "it has nothing to do with you" it was a mitz Plc and had everything to do with me as I was been trained in to work on shift.
I left the job anyway but it always stuck with me that some day his son might be in the job some day and maybe he might ask me a question and I said I would never act like that to his or anyone else's son or daughter. It has stood to me over the years as I am never afraid to ask a question and never afraid to tell someone the little I know to help them out.
I called it "top pocket tech know how" not long after leaving there and with him he was just afraid that I might know as much as him shame as he was very smart and did know his stuff.

Donnchadh
 

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