Why pay for PLC programming software?

Stephen Luft

Lifetime Supporting Member
Join Date
May 2002
Location
South Portland, ME
Posts
671
My question is simple, but the answer escapes me. To all you devoted Allen Bradley people and to everyone else who uses PLCs, why do you pay for their programming software?

For AB to charge $1100 - $1200 for programming software, then on top of that, some people have told me that they charge a yearly upgrade/license fee blows my mind at how many people pay these fees. Then there is Automation Direct that charges for OEM licenses and little things like manuals. They are starting to remind me of banks...charging for every little thing.

A question that has been on my mind for some time. Curious to see what some of your answers are.
 
I buy the software because I can't program the PLC without it.
I pay the service fee to get "free" upgrades, phone support, and bug fixes (TANSTAAFL).

The old way was to buy a "Programming Terminal". Thank heavens no one does those anymore.

The usual spiel from the manufacturer is that the Hardware and Software Development Groups are two independant groups, and each are expected to be a profit center.

I can buy one programming package and program hundreds of PLCs with it. But the software development requires a bigger effort than the hardware (some of which hasn't changed in a decade).

And don't forget the body-blocks that Microsoft throws them - software that used to work, doesn't. But custonmers want it both ways - the lastest OS from MS, and software that works on it.

So I do see their point.

But you could always apply the Gilette business model ("Give away the razors - make money on the blades"). If I got RSLogix for free, I could only use it on AB PLCs. If I invest time making a program using it, I've committed myself to either discarding that investment of time (and money), or buy one of their PLCs.

So why doesn't someone try it? Shareholders. How would you justify giving away something that you used to sell?
 
Gillette Model

I'm not sure, but I think HP & Cannon practically give away their printers, but make a fortune on the Ink Cartridges?
 
Simple Answer: I pay for programming software because I have to!

I agree that the A-B software is egregiously over priced, and out of step with the market. (And not just AutomationDirect.com either. A-B is significantly more expensive than their competitors at GE or Siemens or Modicon too.) However, A-B is often specified as the only acceptable product by end users, mainly because of their huge installed base. They can get away with charging higher proces, and since I don't want to break the law, I have to pay them as the entry price to my market.

If I had my choice I would never use A-B PLCs, and not just because of the price either. Apparently I'm not alone, because A-B is loosing market share. (Remember, thogh, it took Modicon years to loose their position as a market leader.)

However, since A-B was well over 50% of the US market at one point they can drop a lot and still be the leader! And maybe 40% market share at 50% margins is more profit than 50% market share at 30% margins. (And don't knock shareholders for wanting to make money unless you work for free!)
 
I refuse to participate in this debate.

I refuse because the argument is stale and the answer is simple; development and support cost money and the profit margin in PLCs has been eroding steadily since the late '80s.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of action on this topic. Some of it will be perceptive, some of it will be bullshit. Lots of it will be whining.

I work long hours supporting Rockwell Automation customers. I'm dedicated to their success because I used to be one.

And I stopped working for free as soon as I was tall enough to push a lawnmower.
 
OK I get to put in MY 2 cents worth here.

I have cursed, cussed, blasphemed, and totally disrepected Allen Bradley in more ways than you can imagine. I have had some totally awesome debates with Ken Roach on AB products, service and support,

Put all that aside Allen Bradley does have awesome products overall, including their PLC's. Yes there are issues with them and others concerning manuals, support...just plain understanding. I dont see anyone or any brand being plain to understand or being just plain simple to use.

Mr Luft, I know you represent a PC/PLC brand that offers free software. Fuji electric also has free software with their plc's. Automationdirect was a poor choice as an example because their line of plc's and software is reasonably priced.

I personally dislike the prices Allen Bradley charges but they do offer a product with an abundance of features...some that arent seen in others.

Mr Luft, I and several know of your brand plc/pc and its free software but since you are NEW to the market some of us are not in the postition to use/purchase because its an unknown product.

Offer us some form of demo/trial unit with software to experiment with.

Dont take this lightly because in the past Allen Bradley did just that for us with a PLC5/20 and 6200 software..this was along time ago but the fact was it was done to get the business.

Recently a Siemens rep GAVE me not 1 but 2 S7-200 plc's. I can not say how many others have done the same.

As the old saying goes "Put up or shut up". This would be a good place to give demo's and software to promote your brand.
 
I've often wondered why the PLC manufacturers didn't offer a bare-bones programming package for free, and charge for the full-feature package. Probably because they've been getting away with charging for the software since they evolved from dedicated programming devices.
 
Modicon's concept is priced right up there with RSLogix.
One reason stuff costs is that we keep demanding more.
I haven't used it, but I did download directsoft32. It seems really clunky. Based on my experience with other software, the price of the RSLogix is made up in productivity gains.
 
No I do not pay for software

I'm not in the service side of this wall. I only do projects. My customers do have a choice of brand, 50% of the time they will take my advices on what to install in there plants.

-They make the parameters for my job.

-They end up with the bill!!!

As for AB I just hate having to deal with them. Maybee 10% of my dissatisfaction comes from the hardware (mainly from the manuals related to it) the 90% left is from there tech. support. Wether it is localy or from there head office, I just have a lot of difficulties dealing with those fat cats.

Recently I recommended AB slicks to a plant manager. Shurely he specified this brand for the project.

-Why?

-Two of the in-house technicians where foing trough night-school and, you gessed it, they where learning PLC on an AB setup.

-I got one of them to purchase the software at The Learning Pit and the other uses a micrologic which I set up in there shop for them to enjoy.

At the end, my customer pay the bill. In most project, the price of the sofware is small in comparison with the cost of the project.

Personnaly, I would never purchase a $1000 software, just to program some hardware from the same manufacturer, it's like paying to have a fork and a knife in a restaurant.
 
Re: Gillette Model

gbradley said:
I'm not sure, but I think HP & Cannon practically give away their printers, but make a fortune on the Ink Cartridges?

For the price of some ink cartridges, you can almost go out and buy a new printer. If your lucky, that printer will even come with ink.

Now, back to PLC software... Cheap software makes sense, if you think you can do it for free more power to you. Get people to try your stuff, sell lots of hardware. AutomationDirect sells cheaper packages for users who might only be interested in one of their PLC lines, that's especially nice when you're on a student budget.

Allen-Bradley also has separate software packages for their different PLC products. But, I think they're stuck charging more for them because of they have so many users. There's a lot of product out there, which requires a lot of support. They've got to pay these technical guys somehow. If no one ever needed technical support, the software might be cheaper (so stop calling :) ).

Of course, we'll never know if this is the real story, because Ken has opted out of this debate.

AK
 
So how much does it cost to write a package like RSLOGIX 500? How much would it cost you do write or have done? Then after you spent the $200K USD, how much would to charge to each copy? At $1100 a copy one would have to sell almost 200 copies but that requires marketing and distribution. We haven't talk about phone support, manual or making a profit yet.

I think the prices for the software is fair. What really bothers me off is that companies want to charge you money to fix their bugs. This is out rageous. Even Microsoft has free service packs. Service packes should be free and fix the bugs for a version of software.
New versions or upgrades that add features should come at a cost.

I am contemplating developing a suppset of IEC 61131-3 programming package for our motion controllers that supports IL,LD and SFC. I figure this will cost $200K. Now how do I justify that?
 
PLC programming software is a productivity tool, just like a word processor or spreadsheet. Do you say that "I won't pay for Word, it is just a tool to run my LaserJet"? Does that mean HP should be giving a word processor away for free?
Not all softwares are created equal. How long did it take for most PLC software to run under windows? Much less be 32-bit? Now everyone is bitching that their laptops don't come with serial ports. All this stuff costs $$ to support.
More and more in the future, you will be getting what you pay for. It may work, but how much are you paying in extra time that it takes to use it?
Maybe I am lucky, my industry seems to have more money than time.
 
Only $200K ?!?

That's what?, 2-3 programmers' salaries for only one year? And at the end of that year, you will have a full-featured, well-documented, bug-free product that runs on Win95, '98, NT, Win2K, XP, ME(?), under any service pack, and on any hardware? That's so user-friendly that you won't need tech support (or can justify having the customer pay it's full fare)

What's the communication link? RS-232? Will a USB or PCMCIA card be able to handle it, too?

I think you'll be hard-presed to pull it off (depending on the size of that 61131 subset).

You can tell that RSLogix has many more man-years in it than that. And don't forget, Rockwell does give away RSLinx for free, at least enough to take the comm burden off of the RSLogix developement team. OK, maybe it's Rockwell's fault that they have so many comm protocols (DF-1, DH+, DH-485, ethernet).

And then, like you said, there's a sales&marketing effort, product enhancements, accounting overhead, etc.

I understand Ken for leaving the debate. It has been done before (but then, so has most topics here - but you never know when you'll get a fresh insight). And it started with the old "Why is AB so expensive", which I'm sure he must be tired of hearing (I know I am - even if it is true).

On the other hand, I do agree with you about the bug fixes. The same should hold true for when the upgrade "only" supports a new line (or revsion) of hardware. (Although I could forgive Rockwell if, say, they came out with a SLC 5/06 that had built-in Devicenet - it might require a major S/W upgrade to support that.)

What bothers me most about this thread, though, is that Stephen Loft who started it, is the perveyor of free software for his company's line of PLCs. I had remembered that there was such a company rep who posted on the old site, and tried (but failed) to find the topic, so I could provide the info to him. I didn't realize, until Ron Doran's post, that it was he who originally posted it.

I guess it was his intention to get us all riled up, "Throw the Bastards Out", "Free Software", and then come to our rescue. From the general consensus, it looks like he failed.

I also feel that he misrepresented himself here. What does that say about how he represents his company?

Or, to sum up the whole thing in one word:
<center>TANSTAAFL
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch</center>
 
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A B or any of the big PLC manufacturers are never going to sell me a PLC. I buy loads of PLC's every year Thousands and thousands of pounds worth every year. But, if they want me to lay out a grand for the software for every model, I aint gonna do it. If they gave me the software or made it cheap, I would certainly buy some of them if only to try them out. The percentage profit on each of those PLC's could go towards the software development. If there are thousands around the world like me, then that is a whole lot of money that they cannot get their hands on. All PLC's do basically the same thing. Everything you buy has development costs included in the price, why not PLC's?
 

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