Casual Discussion: Virtual Machines

R-110 · Oct 28, 2020

Hello all,
There comes a time in everyone's career when you have to say enough is enough. That day for me is today. My manager is currently 630mi away and having trouble opening my Factroytalk view ME HMI project files. Backing up, restoring, installing different versions, none of it is working. We are able to work around this but this is not fair to either me (receiving calls after hours for something I can't help with), my colleagues, or the customers we provide for. I am implementing a company wide change to use a virtual machine. The goal is to spec an OS for each job, develop in that particular VM, save the files on that VM, and back up on our company shared drives for anyone to pull that VM down, with the correct PLC and HMI files, and be able to work without version discrepancies hindering us. What I would like to know from you all is, what VM's are you using, how are you using them, what do you like, what do you not like, and anything else you feel would be important to know for someone trying to implement this. I really appreciate your time and I look forward to some great discussions. Hopefully we can archive/sticky this for future programmers to refer to, it would seem the industry has come to widely accept VM machine for PLC development. Finding solid information would benefit us all.

thingstodo · Oct 28, 2020

R-110 said:
Hello all,
There comes a time in everyone's career when you have to say enough is enough. That day for me is today. My manager is currently 630mi away and having trouble opening my Factroytalk view ME HMI project files. Backing up, restoring, installing different versions, none of it is working. We are able to work around this but this is not fair to either me (receiving calls after hours for something I can't help with), my colleagues, or the customers we provide for. I am implementing a company wide change to use a virtual machine. The goal is to spec an OS for each job, develop in that particular VM, save the files on that VM, and back up on our company shared drives for anyone to pull that VM down, with the correct PLC and HMI files, and be able to work without version discrepancies hindering us. What I would like to know from you all is, what VM's are you using, how are you using them, what do you like, what do you not like, and anything else you feel would be important to know for someone trying to implement this. I really appreciate your time and I look forward to some great discussions. Hopefully we can archive/sticky this for future programmers to refer to, it would seem the industry has come to widely accept VM machine for PLC development. Finding solid information would benefit us all.

We are not in a OEM or service provider situation. We are end users.

We use VMware, running on three VSX (I think) that share some sort of drive storage. The VMs can technically run on any of the 3 VSX. So losing one of the VSX does not take down the system ... I don't know the details

The VMs run windows server 2012 or 2016 (depending on what the vendor wants to see). For example, RS Studio V27 won't load onto 2016. So we use 2012 for our programming 'terminals'.

We are trying to implement VMs for the panelview config software, programming for the Micrologix, etc ... or the combined software for the 8xx series and smaller panelviews (****!) that Rockwell has gone to. We have not gotten that working as yet. The VMware player running on a laptop in the field is ... challenging

drbitboy · Oct 28, 2020

R-110 said:
Hello all,
There comes a time in everyone's career when you have to say enough is enough....

Heh.

This is a hobby for me, but here are my anecdotal data points:

Linux Mint laptop as VM host, with VirtualBox (freebie) running Windows 10 as VM guest: both RSLogix Micro Starter Lite and TIA Portal (V14 or so?). It worked fine for a while*, but recently RSLogix causes the VM to crash. No issues with any other Windows apps.

My brother uses a similar system (Linux/VirtualBox**/Studio5k) with no issues I have heard of.

You might also want to look into containers (assuming they have those for Windows yet?), which have smaller footprints than VMs, but rely more on the host system and so might not get you beyond this "time in your career."

* getting a new S7-1200 online was a circus but I got there with a USB dongle that the Linux host ignored.

** may be VMware, not VirtualBox

R-110 · Oct 28, 2020

thingstodo said:
We are not in a OEM or service provider situation. We are end users.

We use VMware, running on three VSX (I think) that share some sort of drive storage. The VMs can technically run on any of the 3 VSX. So losing one of the VSX does not take down the system ... I don't know the details

The VMs run windows server 2012 or 2016 (depending on what the vendor wants to see). For example, RS Studio V27 won't load onto 2016. So we use 2012 for our programming 'terminals'.

We are trying to implement VMs for the panelview config software, programming for the Micrologix, etc ... or the combined software for the 8xx series and smaller panelviews (****!) that Rockwell has gone to. We have not gotten that working as yet. The VMware player running on a laptop in the field is ... challenging

Overcoming this challenge is a task I hope to achieve. This whole issue stems from the RA software family and the horrible compatibility with modern OS systems. It would seem VM ware is a good bet. I will investigate this more. May I ask what challenges you are facing in the field with VMs? I really appreciate your input thank you.

drbitboy said:
Heh.

This is a hobby for me, but here are my anecdotal data points:

Linux Mint laptop as VM host, with VirtualBox (freebie) running Windows 10 as VM guest: both RSLogix Micro Starter Lite and TIA Portal (V14 or so?). It worked fine for a while*, but recently RSLogix causes the VM to crash. No issues with any other Windows apps.

My brother uses a similar system (Linux/VirtualBox**/Studio5k) with no issues I have heard of.

You might also want to look into containers (assuming they have those for Windows yet?), which have smaller footprints than VMs, but rely more on the host system and so might not get you beyond this "time in your career."

* getting a new S7-1200 online was a circus but I got there with a USB dongle that the Linux host ignored.

** may be VMware, not VirtualBox

I will look into these containers as a possible solution. I am not worried about the inconvenience of large file sizes or cost. I would like to create a standard in our company that when a job is speced, we create or use an existing virtual machine that is tailored to the PLC/HMI versions they are requesting. Using Linux is probably a little to ambitious for my company at least at this time. I would like to see us be able to use modern, powerful, and up to date Win10 machines for our work. Having the virtual machines to work on legacy projects, or the major one, to satisfy the big three and there version demands is the main goal. We had a contracted PLC engineer in here last week who was willingly switching between about 5 different Windows versions from Vista to 10 on one laptop. He was using VM ware and said it worked like a charm. I really appreciate your input, thank you.

_Dock_ · Oct 28, 2020

I just installed VMbox from oracle the other day, planning to smash some headaches as well. I hope this becomes a good discussion. VM's are very foreign to me. I have about a dozen systems that are running on V26 that we still need to support, and as most know V26 only likes win7.

rld2403 · Oct 28, 2020

I use VMWare workstation on my host. I typically build a VM for each platform Rockwell, Siemens, ect. Build one, validate it works, then back it up. I save project info to the shared directory on my host in folders dedicated to each VM. I run a dual port USB to ethernet adaptor (StarTech brand) and can grab each port individually by the VM. So two VMs can be open and each have their own ethernet adaptor.

janner_10 · Oct 28, 2020

We don't do any of that nonsense, we use corporate OneDrive and it's all sync'd globally, aside .apa files which you have to do manually, because Rockwell.

If an new version comes out, we all upgrade together. There is only about 8 of us though, so it's easy to manage.

P!ssing about with local servers is old hat now.

Operaghost · Oct 28, 2020

Sort of apples and oranges....

The driving force here isn't necessarily file management. It's more Windows and application management. Until applications are fully containerized, there is always a risk that some Windows update, or Rockwell or Siemens patch causing a conflict that breaks other software. It also allows me to install older revs of software to match what a client may be using.

I've used VMs at work for years and can't imagine not using them. I've used them on my home PCs even longer. Now, we are also doing file management with Vault and to a lesser extent, OneDrive.

OG

plcapps · Oct 28, 2020

I'm in the same boat, except one man operation. No IT support (probably more good than bad), but needing to get into virtual machines because of Rockwell software issues, particularly Factory Talk View ME. I have some Linux machines, but am more interested in something using Windows 10.

What version of VMWare or VirtualBox to use? How many Windows 10 licenses do you need? Can you store different machines offline on a backup hard drive?

jdbrandt · Oct 28, 2020

operaghost said:
sort of apples and oranges....

The driving force here isn't necessarily file management. It's more windows and application management. Until applications are fully containerized, there is always a risk that some windows update, or rockwell or siemens patch causing a conflict that breaks other software. It also allows me to install older revs of software to match what a client may be using.

i've used vms at work for years and can't imagine not using them. i've used them on my home pcs even longer. Now, we are also doing file management with vault and to a lesser extent, onedrive.

Og

+1

James Mcquade · Oct 28, 2020

we use vm ware on all our pc's for ab plc software, hmi panels, drive executive.
its windows 7 pro, 32 and 64 bit
we use xp pro for older software.

The issue you will be facing with a lot of software is the license key.
you will need an ab key for all packages you put on the vm's.
the license is tied to various vm serial numbers, cpu, hard drive, ip port....

hope this helps,
james

blperkins · Oct 28, 2020

I am a one-person shop also.
I use VMWare workstation player version 15 is the latest I have used.
I also set up a VM for each software bundle, Rockwell, Siemens, Parker, Mitsubishi, etc, etc. I also have different versions of operating systems, windows 10, 7, XP. Each VM has a mapped drive to my host PC where my files are saved to google drive. I also try to do a backup of the VM's and google drive to an external hard drive as often as I have time.

This has worked well for many years. Minimal maintenance, and minimal cost. it also allows me to share files using google drive and those files are also backed up in case my PC crashes.

However, I recently found a couple of pieces of software that will not run on my VM's (exor JMobile and Omron sysmac studio). Luckily I have not needed those packages for more then a couple days and I have removed them after a install on my host pc.

drforsythe · Oct 29, 2020

To address the issue James Mcquade mentioned, we use a license server running Factory Talk Activation Manager. If we are in the building, we are always connected and licenses are served as needed. If one of us needs to leave the building, we can simply borrow a license for x number of days and return it when back in the building. An alternative to that is placing your licenses on a USB dongle.

cardosocea · Oct 29, 2020

R-110 said:
The goal is to spec an OS for each job, develop in that particular VM, save the files on that VM, and back up on our company shared drives for anyone to pull that VM down, with the correct PLC and HMI files, and be able to work without version discrepancies hindering us.

I know Gb's are as cheap as ever, but if you have a fair amount of customers that's going to get expensive on storage, no? It's also going to be even more painful for the people using the VMs... I think it's fair to say version management of a 20Mb file is something a lot of people have problems with, can you imagine the same with a 60Gb VM?

I have seen some companies that the development VM is shared, but for all projects they carry out. If there's new software, a new one is created but that's it.

Additionally, in OS licensing alone you may run into a big bill... obviously you can run it in demo mode (I know I do), but as a company that may be frowned upon.

VMware is usually a safe option for Rockwell kit. Every single VM engineer I met so far runs their software on VMs. Usually PtoV conversions of their old laptops.

James Mcquade said:
The issue you will be facing with a lot of software is the license key.
you will need an ab key for all packages you put on the vm's.
the license is tied to various vm serial numbers, cpu, hard drive, ip port....

I believe some virtual machine software either let's you play with the hard drive serial number or not change it if you import a VM (i.e. if you activate a VM and transfer it to another computer it won't detect a new hard drive). I may be off or this may only apply to VirtualBox.

Operaghost · Oct 29, 2020

cardosocea said:
I believe some virtual machine software either let's you play with the hard drive serial number or not change it if you import a VM (i.e. if you activate a VM and transfer it to another computer it won't detect a new hard drive). I may be off or this may only apply to VirtualBox.

VolumeID is a great tool to change your HD serial #. Free tool from Sysinternals which is now part of MS.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/volumeid

They also created BGInfo which is another great tool, particularly for VMs.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/bginfo

OG

Casual Discussion: Virtual Machines

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drbitboy

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Operaghost

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