Health and safety at work.

JesperMP said:

...... But I would not in any way describe how the safety issue should be solved. If you do that, and it turns out your suggestions were not enough, then you could be liable.

Click to expand...

And if you ever get asked "how could it be made safer ?", you can reply "start with a proper risk assessment, and take it from there".

Further to my post, I must have frightened them (good)
I have to visit and list and remedy all electrical safety issues.
I had told them what fines to expect if the HSE did a random visit - as they do in the UK.I
So good for the safety - and my wallet in these lockdown times.

Ronnie Sullivan said:

I have to visit and list and remedy all electrical safety issues.

Click to expand...

Perhaps change your signature quote ????

I think this poem sums it up beautifully whether its the first time you read it or the 100th,

I Chose To Look The Other Way

I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn’t that I didn’t care;
I had the time, and I was there.

But I didn’t want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.
I knew he’d done the job before;
If I spoke up he might get sore.

The chances didn’t seem that bad;
I’d done the same, he knew I had.
So I shook my head and walked on by;
He knew the risks as well as I.

He took the chance, I closed an eye;
And with that act, I let him die.
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.

Now every time I see his wife,
I know I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear;
But it isn’t something you need share.

If you see a risk that others take
That puts their health or life at stake,
The question asked or thing you say;
Could help them live another day.

If you see a risk and walk away,
Then hope you never have to say,
“I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.”

By Don Merrell, 2011

Vary poignant, but a bit long to remember, so I'll just learn the first 2 lines

PLCnovice61 said:

I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.

Click to expand...

This poem has been passed around at various safety meetings in Australia, but they message still seems to get passed people that just want to do the wrong thing, it has to start at the top management level and filter down, but l believe in the statement "Safety First, until it upsets production, then it's production first" seems to sum up just about every work place. If money is tight, that statement is more a motto.
I have seen it time and again, l tend to do as the poem states, but there are backlash's the biggest is from the next level up.

PLCnovice61 said:

This poem has been passed around at various safety meetings in Australia, but they message still seems to get passed people that just want to do the wrong thing, it has to start at the top management level and filter down, but l believe in the statement "Safety First, until it upsets production, then it's production first" seems to sum up just about every work place. If money is tight, that statement is more a motto.
I have seen it time and again, l tend to do as the poem states, but there are backlash's the biggest is from the next level up.

Click to expand...

Everything you are asked to do, get it in writing !

I don't know Aussie law, but here in the UK if a programmer does something wrong that leads to litigation, then he is personally liable for conviction, unless he can prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he was acting upon "instruction", or to "Company Standards".

Accident investigators will leap in with full authority to seize company standards documents, meeting minutes, emails etc. At the end of the day it is their responsibility to attribute absolute blame, and they are ruthless in their undertakings.

If you have access to (and why wouldn't you) any Company Standards documents, email them to your personal email. I have heard stories of standards documents being hurriedly revised after an incident, and don't tell me file properties can tell you date and time, we all know you can change them. A reputable company should have no worries about you having a "personal" copy of any standards you are required to work to, they are linked to the contract you have with them, either as an employee, or a contractor.

You have to remember there are no "regulations" relating to control software. There are no "industry standards". There are no "approved" methods. Every company will do things differently to achieve (hopefully) the same results.

However, there are many things that are "tried and tested", but not a single entity is governed by any other "authority" than your (whichever) line manager's say-so. And let's be honest, he'll take the CYA route if he can.

Production is first. I deliberately said in front of our safety guy a couple years ago, "Safety is a solid third around here." He reluctantly agreed with me, then replied "Its quickly becoming second."

edit: Slightly off topic, but an interesting read.
https://www.ishn.com/articles/93505--dirty-jobs--guy-says-safety-third-is--a-conversation-worth-having-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km8XxRCuCho

I agree, we all need to be safe, that reminds me... you should never through a cable that conducts electricity to a guy that is trying to hook up the other end

https://www.reddit.com/r/WinStupidP...ng_to_do_electrical_work_without_calling_the/

All I can say is I could write volumes on this all the violation's I have seen when I first started working I didn't know any better and there were few if any regulations.
I have always said even when I was running jobs you are the last arbitrator of what's safe for you if you don't think it is safe then it is not, don't afraid to ask questions.
And don't be afraid to walk off if you don't think it's safe. It's better to unemployed and alive to talk about it then dead and silent.
Stay Safe

Ronnie Sullivan said:

I had told them what fines to expect if the HSE did a random visit - as they do in the UK.

Click to expand...

Except they seem to not visit what is actually dangerous... or even do surprise visits.

I worked in a top tier COMAH company that shared its site with a non COMAH company. HSE were present in the top tier company every quarter with an "expert" in some area and for the last 5 years found nothing to write about.

They sure do threaten a lot, but when we started asking clarifications for the "non conformances", they essentially stop answering and after 6 months drop it by saying that the repeated information they've received since day one is enough to clarify their questions.

The non COMAH company however, had quarterly fires and in one instance essentially blew up a building and got silly lucky that no one died. HSE never visited them, despite people (me included) writing to them and complaining to our auditor as well.

The reality is that the HSE seems to be a business now and they certainly behave like it.

Probably true, it will have been 5 years since I saw them do a random visit.
But 2 years ago, they did make an appointment with a customer of mine.
They came out with a list as long as your arm.
Some so vague me and their sparky couldn't find them.

Health and safety for the most part are for those who can afford it. Oil companies, for example, are quite good; I did quite a bit of work a few years ago on several oil sites and in the beginning was quite annoyed by the strict rules that I almost waked off a site; later I came to like the rules and advocate for strict safety standards.


I was exposed to bio-wastewater in January 2020 at a medical lab (Canada's largest) and immediately reported the incident to the lab management, worksafe BC and the company that serviced the system and the company that contracted me. I was pretty much ignore and almost laughed at.
I was told by the lab safety engineering that the water contained trace pathogens, which varied depending on the samples they're testing, but it was safe; she said she wouldn't bath in it but it was not a health concern. Two months later a pandemic was declared and we all know now that the virus was present since December 2019.
There was no investigation and worksafe entire investigation was to ask the company that serviced the equipment to provide their safety policy. The end.


Unless I sue the nothing will happen.


I know of one incident where an old woman was killed by a piece of equipment and the fire department investigated (I think they we tasked to do so as they also do rescue) and found that it was just an unfortunate accident. It would've been had we not had the same unfortunate accident happen over and over and over again in different parts of the country resulting in injury and few times death.


Here's one last year, a man and his son out fishing; both dead as s result of "programming error" whatever that means. And it turned out there's a history of "accidents" with this dam.


Safety is for those who can afford it.

at my last plant, they had several fatalities.
the first incident was not their fault, safety measures were in place and ignored.
long story short, the employees ignored all safety measures to find a gas leak and creaked a spark. the second, the employees created a spark in a dust sensitive area by banging on a chisel with a hammer.
OSHA got involved and now does regular visits, UNANNOUNCED visits, and we cannot say no when they come. and you will almost always get wrote up and fined for something.
i almost lost an arm due to a coworker not paying attention to details.
So if i am critical on safety, these items are a good starting place.
james

Ronnie Sullivan said:

Probably true, it will have been 5 years since I saw them do a random visit.
But 2 years ago, they did make an appointment with a customer of mine.
They came out with a list as long as your arm.
Some so vague me and their sparky couldn't find them.

Click to expand...

The issue I have with them is they all receive the same outdated training of "remain silent and let the customer fill the void with info" and meetings with them are a lot of silence and can be very abrasive or downright insulting (stating someone bought their University diploma from eBay, for example). For a paid service, they're also very unhelpful and in some instances absolute wankers. One example was saying that the training matrix of the company didn't meet the standard or regulations but failing to name the regulations or where it fell short of them...
It's a shame really as the HSE has done a lot and is absolutely vital for us all, but the way they go about things is definitely not great or is slipping.

kalabdel said:

Health and safety for the most part are for those who can afford it. Oil companies, for example, are quite good; I did quite a bit of work a few years ago on several oil sites and in the beginning was quite annoyed by the strict rules that I almost waked off a site; later I came to like the rules and advocate for strict safety standards.

Click to expand...

Offshore drilling companies tend to go even further than that (in part because oil companies demand it) and share an awful lot more about safety than other industries. It's not uncommon that an incident with a different company on the other side of the world is relayed within a day to most companies to help them avoid it.