The US has gone to hell and will probably stay there for eternity

When I was in the Navy and we visited foreign countries we always got the lecture "you are not at home you are in THEIR country and you will behave how THEY want. You have no rights as a US citizen here. If you screw up and they throw you in jail we may NOT be able to get you out"

I believe that what all this referred to is US Customs, Border Patrol and Homeland Security searching American citizen property.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty
4th Amendment, etc etc.

What I wonder is what if you shipped your computer UPS to another country??

What irritates me is that Homeland Security and all the post 9 11 hysteria has not done anything to protect me more. I am not gettin one ounce more protection than I had pre 9 11 at the cost of my constitutional guarentees?? Now I have to have a passport to go to Canada??

Any smart terrorist can succeed if he is determined enough and has enough money.

Dan Bentler

I landed in the States few day after September 11.
When the aircraft stooped in the gate.
US officers went on plane and picked who they didn't like.

Board of airplane is international territory.
Do you think someone care.?
All in name of national security.
We know what is terror.It endless war.You can stop streaming of every thing.
But in this age you cannot stop streaming of data.
It is hopeless war.
I dont think they can scan every laptop.But they will block the airport.
You need to come 4 hour before and live 4 hour after.

First, I never claimed to support this policy. For those of you that didn't catch that my last comment was sarcastic, read it again.

I personally share the sentiment of this thread about the legality of this policy. I hold the individual rights of all in high esteem. Having been in charge of professionals tasked with a similar assignment, albeit military not border patrol, I can say that cases exist where you need a reasonable degree of leeway in your policy in order to accomplish your mission. Should you seize a random passengers laptop indefinitely? Of course not. Is it then reasonable if the suspect in question is found to be armed with explosives? I think so. We have a Standard Operating Procedure to follow and are bounded by Rules of Engagement. But at some point those individuals entrusted to protect you have to be given some amount of latitude. We count on their pride, patriotism, professionalism, and sense of duty. In those horrible cases where something goes terribly wrong (Abu Ghriab) all those from the top down get crucified. Remedial action is taken and everything is picked with a fine tooth coumb. We also have public scrutiny to keep us in line. Do I like the idea of racial profiling? Absolutely not. Would I encourage security to utilize their experience and intuition in focusing their attention? Yes. Are lifeguards at the beach "discriminating" against camera bearing tourists with their backs to the ocean? The thing to remember is that we're not talking about thugs who have nothing better to do than waste your time. We're talking about people whose job is your security - and they are held accountable for their actions.

Instead of immediately declaring "Big Brother", stop and consider what it would be like to be a policeman, soldier, or border patrolman tasked with ensuring your safety.

geniusintraining said:

I did not know he was that old


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I think its a conspiracy, I hate big goverment and everything it stands for (or against) I think we need to put full blame on the TAXocrats (read democrats)

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Hes not he's dead, must be the Ghost of Alaric here

Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

or what about this one:

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

surferb said:

Instead of immediately declaring "Big Brother", stop and consider what it would be like to be a policeman, soldier, or border patrolman tasked with ensuring your safety.

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Absolutely, and the next time I interface with a policeman, soldier, or patrolman, I'll thank him/her. But 99.9% of the time, I am answering to Walmart security guard rejects at airports and government buildings. It just doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the system.

As for computer checks, fine. But would it be too much to ask to let me accompany the people doing the search, and to be told when I can expect to get my computer again? Right now, they don't have to do that.

You bring good points to the table - that needn't be an $8.00/hr job and there's certainly "right" and "wrong" ways of doing it.

S7Guy said:

Absolutely, and the next time I interface with a policeman, soldier, or patrolman, I'll thank him/her. But 99.9% of the time, I am answering to Walmart security guard rejects at airports and government buildings. It just doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the system.

As for computer checks, fine. But would it be too much to ask to let me accompany the people doing the search, and to be told when I can expect to get my computer again? Right now, they don't have to do that.

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I can't believe this will pass constitutional inspection. As soon as the ACLU (an organization I used to scorn) files a suit it will be thrown out.

As soon as the ACLU (an organization I used to scorn) files a suit it will be thrown out.

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Tom,

Any particular reason why you no longer scorn them? Have they suddenly changed in some way? I wouldn't count on them to take exception to the U.S. moving closer to a police state.

CeCo3

Ah.. maybe they have other ideas, how about they want to pinch & copy some of our software, perhaps they are fed up with MS just like us.
oops... sorry, do we ever build or design anything over here any more.
Come to think of it, we all drive cars built elsewhere, we buy food from europe, electronics from asia, software from the states & we even get pestered by good old english companies using call centres (centers for you americans)in India?.

Tom Jenkins said:

I can't believe this will pass constitutional inspection. As soon as the ACLU (an organization I used to scorn) files a suit it will be thrown out.

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Tom, did you also get an impression that this is something new and unheard of before? This is the way the article in WaPo is written and it apparently works. Which is sad, to say the least. Especially since the correct answer is right there, in the same article: yes, it has been permitted for a very long time, not necesssarily after the Eleventh. How many people have you heard of complaining about their laptops being stolen or even inspected that way and their sensitive data lost or compromised?

In any country of the world, including the United States, as you are about to cross the border, anything in you possession may be taken for inspection by an immigration or a customs officer based solely on their discretion, whim and feel. Unlike many other countries of the world, even the many undisputably democratic and liberal ones, the United States has neither border nor customs controls as you are leaving the country. Yes, there is a gap as far as your rights may be violated: who knows if they put a bag of cocain in your underwear or some child **** files on your hard drive? What is the answer? I don't know, but, given how old and how widespread this practice (checking, that is, not planting ) is, I highly doubt that it has never been checked against the Constitution.

Your laptop or iPod are no different than your undies. Why would it be otherwise?

I think the whole thing comes down to two issues.
1. I do not like my honesty questioned and I do not like my personal space invaded. I resent my truck getting sniffed by a dog at a military base gate.
2. There must be a reasonable level of probable cause to justify search.

Probable cause is automatically established when the fire department comes to any structure on fire. They can break in to put out the fire. Because they have probable cause they can conduct an arson investigation. If the Fire Dept sees drugs or illegal stuff (I think??) their probable cause is automatically transferred to the police.

Thinking more on this
When you enter a military base you consent to search.
Random drug tests at work by employment you consent
Many employers have in the manual your locker, toolbox can be searched.
Schools are allowed to search
Phone lines are tapped based on probable cause
This is all well and good ASSUMING they have probable cause.

Probable cause is the most easily abused criteria. Here in Washington state the state patrol has tried (I think only tried) to do drug searches on all cars on a street. The fuss and furor over this has caused them to back away from this based mostly on the lack of probable cause.

I also agree with the statement put yourself in the cop or border patrol or trooper shoes. They can abuse their authority of course. What gives me some faith in the system is more cops have let me off on tickets than gave me tickets. I also screwed up and did not declare reentry at an official point of entry. I had the WRONG idea 1 800 Customs could be done anywhere. Custome waived the $5K penalty and one year jail.

Dan Bentler

Over here to get in the mall cinma or coffee shop, you need to open your bag to show the guard what inside.
If you carry weapon you need to show ID and license.
I am not talking about policeman I am talking about mall guard
We know this search cam help us.Its deter potential terrorist.
To came in and bomb him self.
All the airport question ,we use it for years.
Last time in the States I delayed for an hour because the dog did not like the smell of my bag.
Every thing is OK with that.
Laptop is another issue.
If you want.You can put hundreds of Gb in flesh card and hide it very easy.You don't need license to buy new laptop.
At the end they harm the innocent people,who carry laptop for business.
The data we carry is priceless for us.The damage might be terrible.
I advice you guys BACKUP your laptops befor you living the states.

ArikBY said:

The data we carry is priceless for us.The damage might be terrible.
I advice you guys BACKUP your laptops befor you living the states.

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That's why anytime I am going out of town I upload all my information to my web server. Why everyone doesn't have their own web server, I think you can lease some web storage for fairly cheap

Finaly..people are starting to see the truth... Homeland security isn't about protecting you...its about the illusion of protecting you.. As everyone here has said there are a thousand ways around this. so why do it???..so the average citizen at the airport thinks he is safe. Have you ever stopped to think about the 1 quart plastic baggie?? Last time i went to Florida i got into a small debate with the security people...

I flew in from Canada to Philly..on may down i indulged in a drink..i didn't finish the little liquor bottle so i stuffed it in my bag...i then landed in Philly and went outside for a quick puff (I know 2 very bad habbits)..when i went back thru security the guy gave me hard time because my bottle wasn't in a 1 quart plastic bag...i asked.." what the point of the plastic bag"...he replied " to limit the amount of liquids on the plane"..i replied.."ok so whats the problem"..." its not in a 1 quart bag sir".."ok..but its one item and its below the 100ml limit"..."but sir its not in a 1 quart bag".....

I ask you..would the plane have safer if i put the damn thing in a plastic bag???


I have been detained in Canada for having my laptop on a pleasure trip..i commissioned a machine and took for a week vacation..being an owner i took my laptop with me in case the plant had a problem..on arriving back in Canada they pulled me aside..the guy was very pleasant and informed me of exactly what he was doing and why..he asked me up front if had child pornographic images on the computer..he told me it would be favorable if i did to tell him then..i said no..he had me tell him the password...they wouldn't give it to me to unlock...then he searched the drive for Jpegs and movies...He only found movies of daughter being a Ham in front of the camera and that was it..This i understand AND applauld...what i read about today in peters article makes me sick.. People now have to realize when they enter an airport they no longer have any rights...If you look funny they will take you in and detain you...

Congrats Terrorist's..you have won..I am unsure if i have you or the Government to thank for this...Sorry..i should have said Hate for this