Rockwell Ultra servo series motors

I actually put a NEW motor in to replace the questionable axis. That made the problem jump to a different axis. Also when we first installed the machine, all axis run fine. We did not have a problem for the first 6 months of production. I have not yet replaced out the motor that the problem jumped to. Currently that axis is not used much and we are just running that at a slower speed. Please keep posting on any insite you come up.
 
Ultra 100

I have worked out one thing that can cause a similar problem. As the motors get more use, they seem to be less able to maintain positional acuracy so your fault may be related to the "in position band". If you are looking for the axis to be within the "in position band" in your software, make sure it is not set too tight. I had this problem occur on another machine after about 8 months but that was easily rectified.

The encoder noise is still baffling me though.

I will keep the postings going as I get more info,

regards

Steve
 
Talk locally is the Rockwell servo drives & motors just don't
provide the reliability you expect.

--------------------------------------------

I'm starting to agree with that statement.

I commissioned a couple of Ultra 3000's, and
now wish I hadn't. Thermal and encoder errors
when there shouldn't be, (ie. cold motor).
I had the AB reps in and verify from top to
bottom the system settings. Everything appears OK.

I want my "Motion made Easy" and not be a PITA.

:D
 
Ultra servos

Our Ultra servo problems seem to have been cured following
a visit to site by a Rockwell Servo Engineer.
Turns out you just can't trust the auto tune.
As a "rule of thumb" , auto tune then manually reduce the gains
by approx. 50%.
We simulating the problem and the solution on a test bench
here at work. (lucky we had spent enough on spares to allow this)
Problem solved , but it took a visit from an rockwell guy, and alot of shouting on my behalf.
The visit was planned or offered (without cost) by Rockwell, we were just lucky that another machine came to site with sercos and the machine manufacturer had organised Rockwell cover for commissioning.
So we grapped the guy while he was on-site.
 
Turns out you just can't trust the auto tune.
As a "rule of thumb" , auto tune then manually reduce the gains
by approx. 50%.
-------------------------------------------------

Thanks for posting that info.

I'll give that a try.
 
This doesn't pass the smell test.

weekev said:

As a "rule of thumb" , auto tune then manually reduce the gains
by approx. 50%.

Whose rule is that?

AllenF, do you really believe that 'rule of thumb?'
You don't know who said it.
You don't know why he said.
You don't know if the person who said it even knows what he is talking about.

I am familiar with the Rockwell Automation's 1756-M02AE and 1756-HYD02. They auto tune relatively well and the gains do not need to be reduced by a factor of two. The 'rule of thumb' does not apply here. This 'rule of thumb' isn't.
 
Ultra servos

Motor is question is the MPL-A310F-HK22AA.

With the figures from auto tune our system faulted.
With the figures then manully halved after, our system did'nt fault.

The guy involved was an engineer from the Rockwell motion centre for europe.

You don't have to call it a "rule of thumb"; I will.
I had a problem, this was the solution, I posted it, this is what I use the forum for. Don't hang the messenger...

Slán
 
Debunking the old wives tales.

During the summer I have spent a lot of time working on autotuning. What I have found is that for every type of system there is a model that best represents a particular system. I think this is obvious. What is more interesting is that the best controller for each type of system changes depending on how many poles and zeros the system has. Unfortunately, we are stuck with the PID to handle all the different types of system. Clearly this is not optimal, but perhaps good enough and this is what 'we' know.


To learn what I think I needed to know I had to work out how different control schemes such a PID, PI, P , Lag filter, and Lead filter work with different system such as first, second and third order system with different values for the gains, damping factor and natural frequency. I then compared them to see what works best. Rarely are any of the above the best. I have had customers tell me that want the system tuned so that there is no overshoot. In my past ignorance I alway tried to find to alway tune the system so there was no overshoot. What I realize now is that if the damping factor of a second order system is below the square root of 2/3 then there is no way to remove the overshoot using a PID. In this case the PID fails or the mechanical design must be stiffer so the damping factor is above .816 (sqrt(2/3)). Again, the PID is just the 'devil we know'.

The problems I have seen in existing auto tuning systems is that they assume that the system they are tuning is a first order lag system.
A simple first order system a spinning disk on the shaft of a motor.
The auto tune will work well as long as the system that is actually a first order system. If the system is a second or third order system then all bets are off. The calculated gains may not work at all. Even if the system is of first order and can be modeled 'perfectly', we have found that little things such a couplers between encoders and the shaft can degrade the performance enough so that two , otherwise identical, order systems will have very different gains. To solve this problem a auto tuner should allow the user to select the desired response or closed loop time constants. By providing a conservative/aggressive slider that allows one to move the poles easily without the user needing to do calculations for the individual proportional, integartor and differential gains.

It is a miracle if one can tune servo connected to a real machine. Mechanical engineers don't design machinery so that it is easy to tune. A real machine has friction, back lash and loads that change.
If the machine does have backlash then take of the slack before doing and step jumps.

My conclusion is that the odds are stacked against auto tuning and to rely on it is foolish. Weekev's system probably has few mechanical flaws that prohibit a first order model. If you want to use auto tuning you should make sure that the model of the system matches the assumed model of the auto tuner. A better auto tuner must be able to determine the best model for a system by trying many models and selecting the model that best matches the system. For those writing auto tuning software and designing mechanical systems I raise the high bar.
 
Peter wrote:

My conclusion is that the odds are stacked against auto tuning and to rely on it is foolish. Weekev's system probably has few mechanical flaws that prohibit a first order model. If you want to use auto tuning you should make sure that the model of the system matches the assumed model of the auto tuner. A better auto tuner must be able to determine the best model for a system by trying many models and selecting the model that best matches the system. For those writing auto tuning software and designing mechanical systems I raise the high bar.

As Peter said the source of the problem is the actual machine dynamics don't match the model that is the basis for tuning. I guess my thought would be change 'auto-tuning' from gain identification based on an assumed machine model to machine model idetification based on known excitation. I guess the biggest problem with this is what do you do with the information once you have it? I will admit I would be just as lost with how to proceed when my model comes back defined by several 3rd order equations or a list of seven 1st order differential equations.
I quess it's a case of pick your poison. PID is used because the tuning is relatively intuitive. Most people, given a little time and experience, learn to move gain values based on machine observations. However, PID is not a good match for most real-world machines. So you live with lower than optimal gains and you go on with life.
My gut feeling is that the person/company who comes out with a package consisting of a solid system analysis tool coupled with software to turn that analysis into a group of constants for a state-space controller will most likely make a ton of coin on the 'more demanding' applications.

Keith
 

Similar Topics

I have a PH meter that I am trying to bring its data into 1756-L81. I have downloaded the Rockwell MODBUS AOI kit, but I am not sure if I need to...
Replies
5
Views
156
Hi all. Customer wants analog faceplates really bad, even if we explained that it doesn't make much sense in his process. What he wants to see...
Replies
5
Views
127
Hello, recently I saw a graphic from any Rockwell App, I cant identify which one is. Attached a SS. Its used to see dashboard from datapoints and...
Replies
2
Views
127
I'm working with a project that contains some routines in ST but mostly in ladder. Am I correct in assuming this 'rung': DB1001DO._01AV55_OPEN :=...
Replies
4
Views
114
I noticed in Rockwell AOIs, they add a BOOL Output parameter at the end of the "Parameters" list of each AOI that carries the same name as the...
Replies
1
Views
78
Back
Top Bottom