E-STOPs hard wire code

Well, before I get dumped upon for saying this, I am not making any personal attacks here, but you are as cupable as the employer in this. You chose to do the things you did. Working under the radar, against your doctors orders. And then you chose to do the programming as well. AND then you chose to allow your name to be attached to this safety hazard. IT is an absolute illegal use of the E-stop. You should have refused to do any more work, because you are now as liable for any accident as they are.

I have been in similar situations where I was called in and found such things. I refused to touch the machine until that was changed. Only one time did it make anyone angry. I explained to them my experience in a plant that dumped 15000 lbs. of Anhydrous Ammonia due to neglect of the lockout/tagout procedure. ANd I described the end result(I was the rescuer). And then I described how much it cost that company. ANd then I asked the question, " Do you really want to risk that?" I will not.

So, while I feel for you and hope that everything gets better for you, you really need to step back and take a look of how you contributed to all of this. I hope the lawyer can help you resolve at least part of this. IT will probably never be resolved to your satisfaction. You will need to contact the labor department in your area as well as your lawyer, insurance, and OSHA. This is really going to be messy.

David

Safety and E-Stops

Please note.....!!!
No one should take any definative advice from this forum on safety and how circuits should or should not be used.
if anyone is working on, or involved in safety circuits, they should make every effort to consult the legislation that is required in the region or country they are operating in.

There are diffrent requirements and different ways of doing things depending where you are and what you are doing. If you are installing machinery or plant, (in the UK) you should have a 1) a written method statement, 2) a written risk assessment. To complete either of these two documents you must or should have produced a document detailing how the controls will work and provided documentation that they comply with all the safety regulations!

Please note.. I said "definative advice, we all need some guidance on important issues, but it is, in the end, incumbent on each individual to ensure they comply with regulations and law by finding out what IS/ARE actually the requirements.

Sorry to sound officious, but I think it is important that anyone engaged in any work activities should at least approach or invetsigate the actual laws/requirements rather than leave it to open discussion.

regards
Richard

Terry Woods said:

"...as the saying goes. Have a Coke and a smile and..."

...sit-down, shutup, and have another hit on the bong!

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do we have to clock out before we do that???


Fred Raud

My friend Al taught me... Time is Relative!

Whilst I'm sorry to hear of your illness - I have to say that there is no way that it should be used as an excuse for dangerous work - from what I see , the job you did was naively dangerous - and you can not use lack of knowledge as a reason to do what you did - why didn't you check here first ? If you had googled it , you would have found in two minutes how what you did was so dangerous . I have had countless arguments about safety , and the long and the short of it is that a job can never be too safe .

10baseT said:

Whilst I'm sorry to hear of your illness - I have to say that there is no way that it should be used as an excuse for dangerous work - from what I see , the job you did was naively dangerous - and you can not use lack of knowledge as a reason to do what you did - why didn't you check here first ? If you had googled it , you would have found in two minutes how what you did was so dangerous . I have had countless arguments about safety , and the long and the short of it is that a job can never be too safe .

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Once again I did know this was wrong and I knew the proper way to do this.

Nor did I do the physical wiring, all i did was sit in a chair, and programmed.

When I realised how the other workers was doing it inproper, I brought it to my bosses attention then he blew it off with it would put the job over budget.

now the same boss has overed up any extra work i did, then when i requested to be put in family leave act my company denied ckaing i didnt work enough hours for the year. Then basically terminated me, so ended up having to go onto cobra insurance which has not processed for close to 3 months. Since then from all the stress and such has caused another severe MS attack, and having to wait on insurance so I can get into a doctor. My medication cost over $2000 a month with out the insurance. So yes very upset with my old boss for the BS he has pulled to cover his ***.

I'm puzzled with this - you knew that your health was compromised in May last year and you still went on and did this job ? you state that you knew what you did was dangerous ?

I just don't know why you asked the question in the first place - what did you hope to get told ?

I'm sorry to upset you , but I happen to believe that a basic level of literacy is necessary to program PLC's and work with things that kill you - sure I understand that the old breed of dinosaurs still exists who believe that electrical installation is just a matter of joining like coloured wires together - thankfully they are on the way out . What perplexes me is that knowing that your weren't as well as you could be , you messed with a project that could kill someone as a result of your negligence - I would have thought that what you did was the quickest way to further damage your health , and by the sound of it , by working against the advice of your quack , you have probably also denied yourself any chance of compensation for illness .

Wow....lol

I said the same thing, more or less, and got attacked.

Learn English.
Learn CYA.

I'm used to getting attacked and banned from forums because I have a rather strong opinion - I can't say I care though .

One of the things I try to stress to people is that whilst friends are friends , inside work , the only thing that matters is professional integrity and respect .

The written word is the basis for what we all do , particularly as programmers , if we can't be bothered to get the simple things right , how must this reflect on the work we do ? I know what the answer is .

What mandates 'proper' e-stop circuits in the US? NFPA 79? Or is it the same ol' story of local jurisdiction?

In the last five years we've purchased machinery with everything from a simple series circuit connected to an ice-cube relay as the MCR to a machine that has every e-stop wired to it's own point on the plc with redundant wiring and a guardmaster safety relay.

On the small setups I've done, I always use both a 'programmed' e-stop and a physical relay to drop control power. I figure that way even if the relay 'sticks' in some crazy situation the program will still shut off the outputs regardless of whether or not control power is there.

I apologize for being so harsh

I am not an engineer nor a programmer, I am just a guy that can do a few things in this field.

I took exception to the fact that someone was doing work in this field and did not know what code(s) or procedures are applicable. There have been numerous debates about NEC and NFPA standards, the fact is that OSHA uses those for references to their guidelines...NOTE: OSHA has authority over everyone in business.

I can relate to medical problems and needing to make money, on the side per se, but there are a couple of things that must be considered.

The first thing is to make sure that the work will be above board and all parties are aware of the situation and will fully compensate you for your time.

The other thing is it does not matter how "good" you are but if the work you are doing is "bad" then you are bad.

In this situation, if I read correctly, you did bad and/or unsafe work which you did not get compensated for.

I mentioned the grammar and spelling because it has a bearing on how you may be treated, by individuals and companies. You do not have to excel in writing but you need to show some ability or people will "ASSUME" that you are basically an illiterate redneck (or whatever term is used in your area). I am from the southern US so naturally I grew up talking in the classic manner that is shown on TV for "rednecks". I still have a tendency to revert to that manner of speech and use some of the words when writing.

The whole point is that you can look and sound "dumb" even when you are not BUT people will still think you are and use it to take advantage of you. In many situations if they think you are incapable of developing documentation that will CYA, then they will use and abuse you.

I stated my statements would be harsh but I truly did not mean to be offensive. If you thought they were meant as a personal attack then please accept my apology because that was not my intent.

Ok, lets set this straight. First let me apologize for losing my temper. I realize my spelling and grammar needs work. I beat myself myself up every day over not to be able to the simplest of things. Less than a year ago I had a normal life, worked out 3-5 times a week, worked constantly. I loved that I could be sent out on a job, and to be able to fix it “hero complex”. Then in a matter of a week was in a hospital, determined that I had MS, being told I would never work again.
So basically apologize if I was out of line till trying to come to terms with this MS. And when this is pointed out I get defensive.

I was not working under the table, my company had contracted a large job, for a new plant being built. I was responsible for the PLC program, had just started it when I got sick. My company was stuck in jam no other programmers available. ( I have to admit didn’t like others taking over my program, territorial problem ). After getting out of the hospital and got better they asked me if I could still design the program. So started working from home, programming. After a month got better and I could do more, so the doctor approved me working 8 hours a week. My company made me a proposition that if I could finish the job, they would continue paying my health insurance for me and my family. Plus if I get worse will continue paying my 8 hours a week. Then made promises of raises, and promotions when I came back full time. When I would go to the job site consisted of loading the program, and setting up a network. I had no hands on doing the physical wiring (hell didnt even have any tools), ecept. When I started getting errors in my program found some of the E-STOPS wired N/O contacts. At hat time I bought this to my bosses attention he would not have it fixed.
Basically did not try pull a fast one put in the hours to make sure I had a job to go back to, and keep my insurance.
What I got angry over was once the program job was done, and suffered another attack. My company decided that they woudnt keep paying my insurance unless I could come back full time, and go back to doing my regular work doing feild electrical work, Told them then that I cant drive, or be comfortable sticking my hands into live panels. So asked for family leave act law, was told I had not worked enough hours to qualify, then terminated at that time. Found out all the promises and extra hours I put in my boss never told anyone, owner nor human resources. Told them he did all the work. And I was never out there.

So what I was looking for, that did he brake any laws by not doing E-STOPS according to code, yes realize that it isn’t safe the way he did it, but who do I turn it into if laws were broken?

First.. To Ron..I to appologise for getting on your case..It was not my argument..I did see it as a personal attack..I now know it was not ment to be..I get a little defensive when it comes to MS Becouse my father passed away from this..It still gets me a little worked up ..even tho it shouldnt..

You are totly correct about NEC laws and Boxer has admited he knew better..

However No matter what you try and do now Boxer it will look like sour grapes..You did not follow proper procedure when you found out this was not being done to NEC..If you call them in now it will only hurt your case regarding your employment..Think about it..all was well till you no longer had a job..Now you admit to doing the job but not within safety guidlines..i can guarentee your boss will "Forget " all about the conversations you had.

If you dont make a stink about it and claim you did the work they will come back on you and say you didnt do the work properly..and use the Estops as an example..

See what i mean..Its a no win situation...


I know its not what you want to hear..but..