Panel design

RDay: said:

AD sells some nice wire way and it is down right cheap in comparison to Panduit. I have been using it for some time now and I really like it.

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Thanks for that info, RDay! I didn't even know that AD sold wire duct. I've fallen into the habit of using the printed catalog instead of searching the website . The wire duct doesn't even show up in their most recent catalog. This overpriced piece of Panduit is going back!

Originally posted by akreel: One cool feature I've seen in wire duct was break-away "teeth." You could use a pliers (or your fingers if you're patient), rather than a saw to widen any of the gaps.

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It looks like the AD stuff has this feature as well.

Paula

Personally, very personally....

I prefer the round hole type wire duct like this: http://www.panduit.com/products/Products.asp?param=1012&ig_id=742

It's much easier to cut/miter, and place the covers on.

Just a preference...

Mike

If you are going to do alot of panels then you may want to start using ferrules too, eliminates the "whiskers" problem. Whiskers are the nasty little strands that secretly touch wires or terminals they shouldnt.

AD has ferrules too:
http://web3.automationdirect.com/ad...Insulated_Ferrules/Standard_Color_Single_Wire

I have spent FAR too many hours 'standing on my head' with a flashlite in my mouth trying to tweeze-out the one 22ga blue wire of several dozens of the same cussed blue wire in a panduit that requires a 2 by 4 and a hammer to res-install the cover!!!!!!!!

The Japanese builders cram 50+ wires in a 1" wide by 2" tall panduit and say 'Sayanora Yankee'

A tech WILL have to kneel in cutting fluid behind a machine shoved so close to the wall that the door only opens 45 degrees. It's 100 plus degrees, sweat blinding you and you have to test the machine 'HOT' with 480 volt here and there - the former 'electrician' was layed-off and the prints can't be found!!!!

So- save a techs life and use adequate width of panduit and enough room between panduit and connection to get hands/probes in.

Give room for someone to sit on a 5 gallon bucket and space for an 'o'scope.

The life you save may be mine!

*Stop of rant*

So- save a techs life and use adequate width of panduit and enough room between panduit and connection to get hands/probes in.

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My first boss told me when designing to leave a minimum of 1.5" between the wire duct and the closest componenent you were wiring too. So I designed my panel with about 1.75" and that wasn't enough so he made me go to about 2". I usually try to leave 1.5" minimum and wire duct I very rarely use smaller than 1.5" x 3". Keep in mind that many wire duct sizes are listed as inner dimensions, ex: Panduit 1.5" x 3" is actually about 1.7" wide.

Adding to what Mike says about the hole type.
The long slotted wire duct sizes will droop if exposed to excessive heat.
Especially in the horizontal position.
(of course you're not supposed to have excessive heat but...)

While you're at it...

No wire nuts
No duct tape
No baling wire
No inline fuses you know these babies
No inline toggle switches.

akreel said:

I think the brand was Iboco.

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Well, that is what AD sells these days. Iboco.

Rod said:

A tech WILL have to kneel in cutting fluid behind a machine shoved so close to the wall that the door only opens 45 degrees. It's 100 plus degrees, sweat blinding you and you have to test the machine 'HOT' with 480 volt here and there - the former 'electrician' was layed-off and the prints can't be found!!!!

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Here here!! Superb rant!! I found myself nodding and cringing all the way through that...

I'm a little surprised that people are recommending the use of ferrules. I would NEVER consider building a panel without them. I take it they are not used all the time across the pond then?

As for conduit / panduit (not sure of the difference but I bet there is some) I would recommend the slotted type where you can snap off the teeth. This makes it much much much much easier to trace cables when you are fault finding cos you can pull and tug the cables and follow them through the trunking. The other sort doesn't really allow for much movement in the cable once the conduit is full.

Another benefit is that it is easier to disconnect and reconnect cables, plus you aren't pulling off the cable markers as you remove the cable.

You'll note that all these points are from the point of view of someone who'll have to fault find on the panel. Hence my lauded applause of Rods post... I've been there too and its a horrible horrible place..

PLEASE use ferrules!...

Johnny T said:

I'm a little surprised that people are recommending the use of ferrules. I would NEVER consider building a panel without them. I take it they are not used all the time across the pond then?

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Sadly, no. I've been using them on every wire since the late 80s, yet I still see no ferrules on a lot brand new equipment built in the states...

This 'starter pack' assortment of ferrules from Altech comes in a VERY handy container. Great for keeping a supply of ferrules in your toolkit. And it doesn't get upset if you refill it with less expensive ferrules from A-D...



Allied Electronics (www.alliedelec.com) part number 502-5316

As far as the wire duct topic... I refuse to use the 'wide-slot' duct. The narrow slot makes for a much neater job (IMO), especially when connecting wires to a horizontal terminal strip on a brick-style PLC. I also like the narrow fingers because you can pry one out slightly and wire-tie a cable or group of wires that go UP to a component. Easier to explain with a picture:

[attachment]

Look closely where the cable to the 32-point module exits (enters?) the wire duct. Also on the far right module's cables.

beerchug

-Eric

Eric Nelson said:

I've been using them on every wire since the late 80s

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Er, I mean NEARLY every wire... Notice the wires in the above picture have no ferrules...

Shame on me!...

beerchug

-Eric

I heard somewhere long ago that ferrules are not allowed in some areas.

Actually Eric is the reason I started using ferrules. IF you run across wires with the ends tinned (solder) then I may have been in it.

Re: PLEASE use ferrules!...

Eric Nelson said:

Sadly, no. I've been using them on every wire since the late 80s, yet I still see no ferrules on a lot brand new equipment built in the states...

This 'starter pack' assortment of ferrules from Altech comes in a VERY handy container. Great for keeping a supply of ferrules in your toolkit. And it doesn't get upset if you refill it with less expensive ferrules from A-D...

Allied Electronics (www.alliedelec.com) part number 502-5316

As far as the wire duct topic... I refuse to use the 'wide-slot' duct. The narrow slot makes for a much neater job (IMO), especially when connecting wires to a horizontal terminal strip on a brick-style PLC. I also like the narrow fingers because you can pry one out slightly and wire-tie a cable or group of wires that go UP to a component. Easier to explain with a picture:

[attachment]

Look closely where the cable to the 32-point module exits (enters?) the wire duct. Also on the far right module's cables.

beerchug

-Eric

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Eric,

Tsk, tsk.

That PLC does not have the recommended 2" clearance all around for proper air flow.

I am fighting tooth and nail right now with my boss to allow me to make the enclosures bigger so that the controls are not so cramped. Especially the terminals. I would like to use ferrules but again it comes back to time. The shop complained when I started adding wire numbers to all the cables because it almost doubled the wiring time. Imagine if they had to stop and put a ferrule on each wire? I can just here it now. "Are you crazy?? It already takes too long to wire up a panel!!"

Bob

For anyones info I enclose some specs I drafted a while ago to assist in the build of control systems for our machinery

Re: Re: PLEASE use ferrules!...

testsubject said:

The shop complained when I started adding wire numbers to all the cables because it almost doubled the wiring time.

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And cut field service time in half, I'll bet.

The only wires that I may decide not to label are neutral and ground. But, only because they're a different color than EVERYTHING else in the panel. The color is a good enough wire label, why print out a roll of N's and G's?

AK