OT: Ethics

I found THIS on the CDC website regarding electrocution statistics. It's a bit dated, but it's interesting.

Steve Etter said:

I found THIS on the CDC website regarding electrocution statistics. It's a bit dated, but it's interesting.

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Very nice thanks so, much, golden nugget perhaps goldenest so far.

Steve Etter said:

It's a bit dated, but it's interesting.

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Math and physics doesn't exactly "date" in this situation, now does it?

When applying pressure, the most common mistake is stopping to wait for submission.

I clicked go on the OSHA report online. I hada dream during my nap about a scalping incident at goodyear, only this time it was that new system which nevre got a risk analysis done. They do that after a week or two of production here since ...

Cutting a lock where I work is a big no-no and will get you fired. They have called forgetful employees in the middle of the night and made them come in just to remove a lock.
If the employee cannot be contacted after every attempt then the plant manager must sign off in this case.

I still intend to print this thread, go buy a fax machine, sit in teh ladies office with my Vaio and my Fax machine and fax it to her.

PieAce!!!

I will tell her I don't have another copy, and it is much easier than a copy machine..."Dya' gotta socket free?" as I twirl my 20a brown cord...

I guess no news is good news. Hopefully, when I go in Monday, I will find out the co. has done the right thing...weird that no one has called me at all though...

The mill I work for has a zero tolerance stance on lock-out. We were working on replacing a pump and motor that involved some re-piping and a few of the millwrights had gone home for the day and kept their locks on the bucket. The electrician has replaced the motor and needed to test rotation. He thought he was ok to bypass the lockout because the coupler was not on the pump yet. He bypassed it and the incident was reported to the supervisor. The electrician and two other millwrights that were in the area were sent home. The two other millwrights were not even working on the equipment, just in the area but saw the electrician do it. All three were fired! The millwrights were fired for not stopping him. When the managers interviewed the millwrights, they said they were not working on the equipment so they didn’t say anything.
Seriously,
If things don’t work out for you where you are at and you have an interest in relocating to Idaho, let me know. We have an opening at a fairly modern mill that was slapped together but all the equipment doesn’t play well together. Fairly good pay and paid relocation.


Kevin

In Ozz there is zero tolerance on cutting a lockout - we have the Workcover people here and they are absolute a***holes - fine - fine - fine. I think the fine for an individual person for that is $5500, the next up the line is higher and so on and the boss is about $220000! If there is a death the boss can get belted $750000 and put in jail! It has happened! Totally irresponsible and an almost mandatory sackable offence. I have never seen anyone not sacked for doing that quite frankly! Sue the buggers for putting your life at risk! There are documented exceptions to the rule of course if someone dies, or is in hospital etc but there are very few exceptions and there are very stringent rules to be followed. May I also state that no one or company can pay these fines for an individual - the individual is totally responsible for the payment of the fine. I have known of people who have had to sell their houses to pay the fine or the courts will take the house off them and sell it to pay the fine.

not that big a deal

It is weird to think that they would cut my lock without telling me, but my radio was acting up, so maybe they did and I didn't answer so they went forward with it.

THere were four or five people up there to witness, I cann't imagine that they didn't follow their policy. I don't remember the exact policy they use, because I have never had any thought of going near another mans lock. If I had to do that It would take me thirty minutes to review the rules.

But that is just me. I am cautious and always trying to do things better than they need be. I can see why Mr. Ed and the Jacke-lope were upset with me. I was the hold up on their million dollar project. I can see why they might think I was dragging my feet. They generally argue when I do something that costs more money or takes more time...it's the product first mentality.

I think this is going to be handled once I talk to them again Monday, they will decide who gets punished and be fair about it. If we all three keep our jobs, I will insist that I go back to being a hands in pocket programmer. I dare not touch bare copper again in that plant until I understand the place and everyone in it a little better.

If the two who did this broke procedure and keep their jobs, well then I am pretty sure I will not stick around any longer than necessary to relocate where human life has more value. I love this great state but the gov't here sux. After June-ish, the youngest of my thriving throng of little men will be out of high school, and there is NOTHING holding me in this state afterward, and I am a passport away from travelling the world.

Paul

Okie - It's apparent that you are thinking with a bit more calm now, but don't over-think your position too much or start to question whether you have a valid situation. I think it's pretty clear you do.

It really doesn't matter whether they actually attempted to call you on the radio or that these guys are pushing for faster, more production, or what. None of that is relevant. In every LOTO program I have been around the one hard-and-fast rule was NO LOCKOUT LOCK IS EVER REMOVED UNTIL EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS TO CONTACT THE OWNER IS EXHAUSTED. Some places simply do not ever allow this (as indicated by many previous posts in this thread) while others have written procedures that include manager sign-offs and records where attempted contact was made. In either case, it's the company's responsibility to document this procedure and when it's been followed. If no such documentation exists, they are in the wrong.

So, in most cases, a judge bases his final decision on what is the reasonable expectation. Assuming what you have told us here is basically the whole story, the reasonable expectation IMHO is that every attempt to get you to remove your lock WAS NOT attempted. If they tried to call you on the radio, they clearly believed you were available. If they didn't, they were negligent. If they didn't document their attempts, they were negligent. If their LOTO program doesn't include a procedure that details the steps to be taken and documented for such events, they were willfully negligent. In short, I don't see how any actions as you describe them put you at fault.

I don't believe you need to lighten-up or back-down. Everything you describe about foot-dragging, pressure for production, and so on have no importance with respect to this. A major safety violation was perpetrated by these guys against you and you did nothing wrong.

Don't start doubting yourself.

Three crows are sitting on a pump handle after a full day picking through cow pies.

After a few minutes one of hte crows takes off, flies about halfway across the field. Then suddenly just drops dead right out of the sky.

A few minutes later, the 2nd crow takes off...flies 100 yards, bam drops dead too.

The third crow only makes it 50 yards.
Moral of story? (Don't fly off the handle full of chit)

That's what I did. I got my feelings hurt, nothing more. I felt violated because of some ridiculous ideal. I slept nine hours straight (next to my kids no less).

I have no damages. (this makes legal assistance zilch). There was no need to get upset, and think I am entitled to anything other that a swift kick in the pants. I only cam close to maybe getting shocked, it just really rubbed me wrong to have MY worksite taken over this way. It was never MY worksite. Locks mean nothing. It is their property.

It'll be alright...I gotta quit taking this chit so seriously, I gotta just do my best to point out their errors and take my paycheck like everyone else.

No harm was done.

I am glad I got a lot of support, at least I know I am not the only crow out here in this crazy world. But I think I will stick to corn, leave those cowpies alone.

OkiePC said:

No harm was done.

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THIS TIME! "No harm was done THIS TIME." Clearly it was an unlocking violation. Make sure it doesn't happen to you again.

tomalbright said:

THIS TIME! "No harm was done THIS TIME." Clearly it was an unlocking violation.

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That is yet to be determined. I can't see them not firing the two who did it if it was. If they'd been fired, I would have heard about this by now. This tells me they did not investigate yet, or they followed the rules. Besides, since my lock was not according to the written plan (not sure we have one for this situation) I am the one who violated loto. Locking out in the wrong spot is apparently grounds for shock therapy.

Make sure it doesn't happen to you again.

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No doubt. I may never touch copper with my bare skin again.

OkiePC said:

Besides, since my lock was not according to the written plan (not sure we have one for this situation) I am the one who violated loto.

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Once again, I am confident this is a completely separate point. Yes, I suppose you might have violated a clause in the LOTO program, but that has nothing to do with the root violation.

Was it apparent that the intent of your "non-conforming" lock was there to prevent an unsafe condition? Yes, I believe a judge would think so.

Is there any language in the LOTO program that suggests a "non-conforming" lock can be removed without following the same procedure as that of a "conforming" lock? Not likely, and I imagine a judge would want proof that this is both written and reasonable.

So, what violations do we have? Two, maybe.

First we have a violation that created a life-threatening condition. A violation that was willingly, intentionally, and knowingly perpetrated by Supervisory/Management level personnel.

Second we have a violation by a technical level person where non-conforming equipment was used in the attempt to follow the LOTO program.

Seems to me only one of these is a firing offense.