State of engineering in US

mordred said:
... after all will a court of law accept a tech performing engineering duties as a valid expert? or can he be held liable for a poor design

The answer as I have been told is that to be an expert witness, you MUST have a valid PE.

As for being liable for a poor design, I think in today's world, whether you are a tech or engineer, if you design something that kills someone, you can be held liable. Just because you didn't know better does not relieve you of that liability. That is where the term manslaughter came from (Manslaughter - Law. the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.)
 
I agree on who can be held liable after all an electrician can be held accountable for loss of life same as an engineer I guess my point is thier is one less scapegoat without having an engineer if that makes sense
 
How did we get on this topic anyway? Why can't we all just play in the same sandbox and get along?
 
brucechase said:
The answer as I have been told is that to be an expert witness, you MUST have a valid PE.

As for being liable for a poor design, I think in today's world, whether you are a tech or engineer, if you design something that kills someone, you can be held liable. Just because you didn't know better does not relieve you of that liability. That is where the term manslaughter came from (Manslaughter - Law. the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.)

That's not true either. At UIC, the head of the ECE department is not a PE and has been called to be an expert witness in the past. He does have a PhD though. :)
 
Hugh,

I just wanted to thank you personally for your work. Your book in PDF form has been part of all of my PLC courses for some time now. I think it was Peter who recommended the book about two years ago.



We take much the same approach toward two different goals involving the same technology. Rather than engineers, I teach technicians. Like your department, ours is tied very closely to the local industry, and the local industry is diverse. It makes a huge difference. Most of my guys/gals have to choose which company they want to work for, not beg for a job. Thanks to a tremendous amount of work done before I started teaching, our school (through local industry) offers better scholarships to our technicians than to the athletes. Our baseball team was highly ranked last spring.



I don't care to enter the engineer vs technician debate. The true issue is quality of person, and in both cases there are very good, and very bad people. Even among my own students.



Peter, as always, adds light to my day. Thanks. The more I work with PID and feed forward/back, the more respect I have for your insight.
 
plchacker said:
I think it was Peter who recommended the book about two years ago.
Actually, it was long before that. This forum has crashed or reset a few time in the past but I don't think it has in the last 5 years. If you look at Hugh Jack's revision for his PLC document you will see it goes way back. I think the first version posted here was around 2000 or 2001. I keep telling people that the forum has history.

Peter, as always, adds light to my day.
I don't know what to say. Always? Nah.

Thanks. The more I work with PID and feed forward/back, the more respect I have for your insight.
You have only seen a small fraction. If you want to geek out there is my FTP site.
ftp://ftp.deltacompsys.com/public
Most of the .pdf files were made for the sci.engr.control newgroup. I don't post links to them here because they are often off topic or just too much geek stuff.
 
I am sorry Jiri, I should have recognized your original article as Flamebait.


Well I did have to look up the Flamebait on the web.

Flamebait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often has no real interest in.

If I am the troll here, then rest assured that enginnering is a subject close to my heart. I have been an engineer longer than many people here have been. I am truly interested in what shape the engineering is at and above all what will it be like in the future, that is if engineering in US has any future to speak of.

Special interest groups such as the one you are part of Hugh, have vested interest in spreading disinformation.

In past five years average college tuition went up by 51%, many students have to take loans and end up with heavy debt to start their careers. You are not going to complain about it, why should you, your salary is based on that 51%.

I know for example that Devry University used to advertize heavily their so called employment statistics, until they got sued! You won't see them anymore making claims they can't support!

It is true that in the last two years the engineering employment has improved to a point where it is now, on par with the general employment picture. I used to get one or more unsolicited resumes per week at my business (www.tomantron.com) until about two years ago.

Hugh, if you have any statistical data that you could show me, that would support your claims regarding the full employment of your students, please let me see them! I know that you refer to co-op programs. Well being a co-op is a shoe in, how about non co-op students!
I also tend to wonder about Jiri's motivation on this. Maybe just some fun before Christmas.
Of course I want to have fun, don't you? But apart from that, call it a Lou Dobbs effect, the man makes me think. I don't have any hidden agenda or bitterness, as they say in baseball: engineering has been very good to me. I have done very well, but that doesn't mean that I have to ignore the rest of the engineering community.
Engineers do not protect their turf, engineering has become a pseudo-profession and engineers have no bargaining power what so ever.


Just because one may have many years of experience, they are NOT engineers. I do believe that the pay scales do not reward those with the years of experience vs those who are right out of college.

But I do sympatize with all those underpaid techs who are doing engineering work. This has been a systemic approach in many Companies in order to avoid hiring engineers and paying a little more.
Yes there is a shortage of good maintenance technicians, capable of doing engineering and not being able to make anywhere near of what a union electrician makes.
Ask yourself a question do you ever hear about shortages of union electricians? I don't, all I hear is that you need to know someone to get into the union. In fact I know of degreed engineers who left electrical engineering and became
union electricians to make some money!

25 years ago Companies used to pay bonuses of hundreds of Dollars if they hired an engineer that you recommended. I doubt that any Company pays bonuses anymore.

30 years ago I went for an interview and started the same day in the afternoon.

That's what you call a shortage of engineers!
 
Jiri Toman said:
25 years ago Companies used to pay bonuses of hundreds of Dollars if they hired an engineer that you recommended. I doubt that any Company pays bonuses anymore.

We still have bonuses for referrals - $1,250.
 
Jiri Toman said:
In past five years average college tuition went up by 51%, many students have to take loans and end up with heavy debt to start their careers. You are not going to complain about it, why should you, your salary is based on that 51%.

I never did understand the fuss over student loans. What's wrong with assuming some debt to start a career? If you want to start a career as a carpenter, a plumber, a fisherman, or whatever, you have to go in debt, so why shouldn't an engineer? It's one of the best investments a person can make, since every dollar spent on education gives an unreal return on the investment.

But I do sympatize with all those underpaid techs who are doing engineering work. This has been a systemic approach in many Companies in order to avoid hiring engineers and paying a little more.

Maybe it's due to the particular industries I work in, but the manufacturing techs make more than the engineers in every case. They are paid hourly, and with overtime they pull down 80k to 120k quite easily. I wouldn't call them underpaid.
 
S7Guy said:
I never did understand the fuss over student loans. What's wrong with assuming some debt to start a career? If you want to start a career as a carpenter, a plumber, a fisherman, or whatever, you have to go in debt, so why shouldn't an engineer? It's one of the best investments a person can make, since every dollar spent on education gives an unreal return on the investment..
I would have to disagree that there is some great return on that invested dollar. Keep in mind that I fully believe that getting a degree is one of the best things that you can do, both for getting a better job and for just bettering yourself but, let's look at the math.

$10,000 per year loan for education. Get out of school and make $50,000. Technician makes $40,000 per year doing work. In 4 years (5 for me) an engineer has $40,000 in loans (plus interest to pay back) with very little or no income in that time frame. Meanwhile tech has made $160,000. Even if the engineer makes $10,000 more than a tech for a while (which doesn't happen, the techs will make more with OT after a couple of years), it will take 16 years just to break even. I know that I am ignoring compounded interest and the future value of the dollar, but the fact is taking out a loan is a burdon as long as the industries of this world do not value the engineer.



S7Guy said:
Maybe it's due to the particular industries I work in, but the manufacturing techs make more than the engineers in every case. They are paid hourly, and with overtime they pull down 80k to 120k quite easily. I wouldn't call them underpaid.

See above, I fully agree. Comparing end of year checks with all the techs (most are under 35 years old) I work with, (other than the guy who broke his leg and arm and was out for 3 months) I made less than every single one of them while working as many or more hours (some $20K less). I have been an engineer for 20 years now, am on call 24/7/365, and required to work min 48 hours per week. When there is a problem that they can't figure out or their shift ends, I don't have a choice.

Don't know why I'm on this, maybe because we are entering a week long shutdown and I've been working lots of extra time to prepare and hope I can be off on Christmas day for a few hours to spend with my family. I just get tired of the engineer bashing, put downs, and people calling themselves an engineer when they are not.
 
brucechase said:
I would have to disagree that there is some great return on that invested dollar. Keep in mind that I fully believe that getting a degree is one of the best things that you can do, both for getting a better job and for just bettering yourself but, let's look at the math.

That isn't a very good comparison. The best way to look at the investment is to consider how much you would make in life-long earnings without the degree versus with one. A person in my area with just a high school education is lucky to make $25k per year. Someone with a two or four year degree can easily make double that. So, the $10k per year that someone has to spend is nothing compared to what they get in return.

The techs that you are comparing yourself to didn't go to any school at all beyond high school? If so, that is unusual. Most places look for at least a two year degree. They days of graduating high school and getting a well paying job are pretty much gone.
 
There comes a time when my time off is more important than money.

I am sure you guys no how hard it was starting out. I can't imagen just getting out of college with $40k debt, the average starter home is $200k more people are staying single, Now credit lenders really want 10% down plus closing costs, Cars cost $30k.

An engineering degree will open more doors for you.

Colleges are maxing out their enrollment so It's supply and demand why not raise the price. Wouldn't you? Maybe big brother will step in.
 
Mach said:
I am sure you guys no how hard it was starting out. I can't imagen just getting out of college with $40k debt, the average starter home is $200k more people are staying single, Now credit lenders really want 10% down plus closing costs, Cars cost $30k.

I managed to graduate college with a little over $100k in debt, my wife has another $40-50k. We just bought a house about 2 months ago and luckily they didn't require 10% down or it'd be about 10 years before we could afford it.

I was lucky my school integrated a co-op program with the academics. We had 11 week academic semesters alternating with 11 week work semesters since we were freshman so I graduated with over 2.5 years experience.
 
brucechase said:
Don't know why I'm on this, maybe because we are entering a week long shutdown and I've been working lots of extra time to prepare and hope I can be off on Christmas day for a few hours to spend with my family. I just get tired of the engineer bashing, put downs, and people calling themselves an engineer when they are not.

I guess we should really define 'engineer'.
Do you HAVE to have a BSc in an engineering subject to be classed as an 'engineer'?
To be honest if being allowed to call myself an 'engineer' means I have to get into $50k worth of debt, drop my wages $30k and forget everything I ever learned during my years in the field I think I'll stick to being a lowly technician.

Sounds ludicrous doesnt it!
Can't we all just get along?
 
Lou Dubb is a xenophobic idiot.

You want to be in demand? Be a plumber. The dude who showed up here told me he cleared $120k last year.

Techs? Our tech makes more than me with overtime. They deserve every dime of it.

Engineers do not protect their turf, engineering has become a pseudo-profession and engineers have no bargaining power what so ever.
We can make PE a requirement like MD but in the end it would make very little difference due to global competition. One poster mentioned the quality isn't as good as the US, I think he meant average quality since there are a lot of lame diploma mills in India along with some of the best engineering schools.
 

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