Water and Sewer plant. New PLC and scada system

[DwSoFt]

Ok so I have done alot of Electrical and instrumentation on water and sewer plants. I know the process quite well.

Through a friend I have been invited to bid on the Automation Replacement come the new year on their water and sewer plants, so I have lots of time yet... But I was hoping some water/sewer guys such as OkiePC could give me.some hints as to what kind of scada they use and is most popular. The operators request is that it be accessible on a smart phone, brand of phone is not important as they will get one to fit once the system is in place.

Now since this is at a.Correctional Center it is Federal Government not local so we probably need to pick a system from the main stream guys as opposed to some of the nice options I've seen on here such as Advanced HMI. but as th prints won't be out till new year I'm really just doing some research right now. Thank you in advance.

[Paullys50]

I will always endorse Inductive Automation's Ignition product for every SCADA application until I find a reason someone else is better.

Plenty of water district case studies:
https://inductiveautomation.com/scad...ns/casestudies

With 7.8 being released with the new reporting system, should be quite an enhancement to an already great product.

[Tom Jenkins]

The market leader (not necessarily the most cost effective) is Allen Bradley in the US and Canada. From my observations the second place goes to Schneider Modicon. I would expect that smart phone access is doable with either platform, though perhaps some third party software may be required. It doesn't seem like radio telemetry will be needed, but I know that spread spectrum radios support both platforms.

The SCADA market is a lot more fragmented. Intellution, Wonderware, and RS View have installed bases. With the latest round of acquisitions I don't know who owns who anymore.

[OkiePC]

I am new in this field, only having working here since January. Most of our work is with well fields, and a few of them are surface water treatment and waste water treatment.

In this part of the USA, I see lots of Allen Bradley PLCs, and a handful of oddball other PLCs and most of those are also obsolete. We have one customer using Automation Direct PLCs.

A/B makes great PLCs and they have probably the best longevity in the field. I can never go wrong with Allen Bradley PLCs. I have an upcoming project where I will use the Productivity 2000 PLCs which will save several thousand dollars mostly in the cost of software. We always include programming software in our proposals. If I get flattened by a truck, or I am 1000 miles away and they need help, they should have all the tools and files to call any PLC technician and get the work done.

I got a bad taste in my mouth just last week trying to find out what it would take to move a wUnderwear license to a new PC. Without a support contract, they "cannot let you talk to an engineer". I did manage to interrupt her long enough to ask about upgrading and she patched me through to a sales guy who gave a quote. For software the municipality already bought and paid for (3 licenses in total) it would cost about $5500 to upgrade them run on Windows 7 but with no support, and about $7800 with one year of support.

My boss has been using DAQFactory for a lot of customers. It has some quirks and limitations but is quite full featured. I am not sure if the bugs I am seeing are because of the previous programmer doing things weird or if the software is just not that reliable. I suspect a little of both. For a couple of hundred bucks per runtime key, it is pretty salty.

I just lit the fuse on my first Ignition project. I did not run into any software glitches or shortcomings with Ignition. Once I trained myself (using Inductive University) I was able to get everything I needed figured out without flying away to any school or pestering their tech support people. The sales guy who called on me was super nice. He checked on me a few times before we spent a dime, gave me demo licenses, and did not ever seem like he was pressuring me. The pricing is right there on the website and like most companies, you can do a little better than those list prices. I really lilke Ignition.

I have some customers running RSView32 and I did convert one of them to Factory Talk View Station. I did that to save time. After fighting with the conversion process, and all the glitches Rockwell provides, I probably did not save any time. I will not mess around with FTView any more. We'll use Ignition to replace it if I have my way in the future, but the customer gets the final say so. Often, they defer to us for technical stuff but once in a while we work for someone who has a preference that we adapt to. It is their money.

So my favorites are Allen Bradley PLCs and Ignition, and let's not forget Red Lion for hardware based HMI.

[DwSoFt]

Allen Bradley is what I am mostly trained on Although that doesn't mean I'm not willing to diversify. I really like FTVIEW ME but I was a little disappointed on the differences of SE. I'm not gonna lie but Ignition is on my mind. I have never done a complete Project like this before. I am usually changes and add on's to existing systems so I am excited to do it if I win the bid. thanks for the input so far guys

[boneless]

Since you are dealing with federal government, isn't the chance that they will tell you what to use pretty big? What does the bid state?

(partially replying just to get updates on this, seems like a fun project)

[DwSoFt]

I am kind of hoping they say what to use in the bid otherwise the guy with the cheapest equipment wins. which means ****.sometimes. and if that's the case maybe I should be specifying AD equipment (edit: I am not saying they are ****. I am saying the price point is good if they want low budget) lol. the bid isn't out until new year just the local operators gave me a heads up because they would like to have me do it as I was e/I maintenance there for a while and they miss me. lol.

[pmascarenas]

our waste water treatment at the steel plant is running on softlogix v23 with point I/O hardware and upgrading the HMI from rsview 32 to Factorytalk studio machine addition.

[boneless]

That sounds good

You could put out a proposal with both options? I would quote the equipment you would like to use, but put in an option to go for the cheaper stuff somewhere (if you are worried about losing to others quoting cheap stuff). I know from experience that if you do it the other way (quote cheap with option for better equipment), the client usually goes for the first.

In the end, I don't think equipment would be the biggest cost either way .

[Saffa]

Here down under there's a lot of Citect and Wonderware. Rockwell has a big share of the PLC Market but Schneider are making inroads. I'm a Wonderware man myself, and provided you keep in support our distrubutor here is very helpful.

I think you will likely get told what to use, unless they're a very small authority they will (should!) Have a standard for this sort of thing.

If you're a single-man operation, you do need to be careful with these kinds of jobs. Be sure to read the contract documents very carefully when tendering. Sometimes just the insurance requirements and liquidated damages for late delivery are enough to make you think twice.

[JesperMP]

Originally Posted by OkiePC

I got a bad taste in my mouth just last week trying to find out what it would take to move a wUnderwear license to a new PC. Without a support contract, they "cannot let you talk to an engineer". [...] For software the municipality already bought and paid for (3 licenses in total) it would cost about $5500 to upgrade them run on Windows 7 but with no support, and about $7800 with one year of support.

Originally Posted by Saffa

I'm a Wonderware man myself, and provided you keep in support our distrubutor here is very helpful.

Meaning: If you are willing to pay extra money, they will support you ? If not, you are f****d ?
And the distributor is supposed to help, not Wonderware themselves !?
And I am supposing the "in support" means you have to continue paying.

My question is: Why do people accept such conditions ? Have they been suckered into buying the product before being aware of the total costs over the long run ?

[BobB]

I have used Citect for years but seriously looking at Ignition since the Schneider steam roller has run over Citect. I have used my last Schneider PLC and also my last AB PLC - the costs of maintaining a licence agreement for both are stupid! I now only use Omron PLCs as they have a most reasonable licencing agreement that dose not cost me many $$$$$$$$$$$ each year. Their hardware is also extremely reliable and I do not have breakdowns or DOA equipment as happens with many other brands.

[Firejo]

I’m going to give a different perspective. I’ve been in the industrial automation industry for around 20 years. More specifically in the data communications arena, mostly wireless modems. Our main channel to market focuses on Allen Bradley equipment but we do sometimes also work with Schneider, GE Fanuc, Siemens and a handful of others. Allen Bradley is clearly the market leader in North America for several reasons (in my opinion) one of which is that Rockwell is a marketing powerhouse (it’s probably what they do best). However, it’s easy to market something when it truly is a superior product. Everybody had the pro’s and con’s but in my opinion at the end of the day when everything is considered it is hard to beat an Allen Bradley solution. I’m not saying you can’t beat them, but it is difficult. The products (for the most part) work, last forever and are pretty simple to use. One aspect that I have insight into that helps me reach my conclusion is the “system startup” calls that we sometimes get. Fortunately (for me) I don’t get to many of these calls because my products are also some of the best you can buy and they simply work when you need them to but we sometimes do get these calls and about 80% of the time they are for someone else’s PLC/PAC’s (not Rockwell). And with those calls it almost always comes down to difficulty and/or lack of knowledge when it comes to setting up communications.
One other thing to consider (at least from me) is that Rockwell really does have a majority of the market share which means that most of the equipment out there is Rockwell and because of that, a majority of the people working in the industry know Rockwell equipment, what works and what doesn’t work (or doesn’t work very well). That gives us all a big pool of people to reach out to when we need help. This blog site is an excellent example of what I’m talking about. Try asking how to setup a timer in a MicroLogix 1100 and you’ll get dozens of replies (even I can tell you how to do that). Ask how to set up a timer in a GE Fanuc 90-30 and you’ll get replies, but not as many.
Lastly, I’d like to show an option for remote I/O (not the protocol but the process of doing I/O remotely) in the off chance that you might be needing something along those lines. There are several ways to doing remote I/O but the below product allows you to connect the host PLC/PAC via a protocol (EtherNet/IP, DF1, Modbus TCP or Modbus RTU) and have your I/O points at the remote end. There is a lot of flexibility in the system and because the data being exchanged from the protocol master to the I/O remotes is a rock solid serial protocol (separate from the PLC/PAC protocol) the whole system is very stable and robust (and it will go upwards of 25 miles if needed).
http://www.data-linc.com/cixfamily/cix6400.htm

[DwSoFt]

Originally Posted by Saffa

Here down under there's a lot of Citect and Wonderware. Rockwell has a big share of the PLC Market but Schneider are making inroads. I'm a Wonderware man myself, and provided you keep in support our distrubutor here is very helpful.

I think you will likely get told what to use, unless they're a very small authority they will (should!) Have a standard for this sort of thing.

If you're a single-man operation, you do need to be careful with these kinds of jobs. Be sure to read the contract documents very carefully when tendering. Sometimes just the insurance requirements and liquidated damages for late delivery are enough to make you think twice.

Fortunately I am not a 1 man operation. we are an Electrical/Instrumentation company and I am 1 of 3 programmers, Altho I am the newest but also the other 2 are at our main office and I am 2 hours away. This means I end up doing everything over this way but I have the ability to ask our senior guy when I need help. And insurances is all handled for me by the owners. and then I subcontract through them.

As for the rest I do like the 2 option approach but again I most likely will be told what to use

[RheinhardtP]

I doubt any organisation that deals regularly with these kind of projects would allow the contractor to select their own hardware. It will come down to support and maintenance. You don't want to end up wit 20 different brands across your operation.

But when it comes to product selection this is how i go about it:

1. Install base (What is the current install base for the customer and is the hardware readily available from suppliers (spares)).
2. Support/Maintenance (Are the local SIs/maintenance staff skilled in the product i am installing and will i introduce more complexities by installing it for maintenance staff).
3. $$$$ Lastly Does it fit into their budget.(If it is an issue, cant budget for a donkey cart and expect a ferrari)

What i have found is that most known PLCs and SCADA packages will do what it is required to, they all have their quirks (some more than other), but can all achieve the same result if engineered correctly. Yes like other people i have my preference but that would be considered a biased opinion.

Saying that in North america i would be more likely to go with Allen Bradley. in Africa and Europe , i would rather select Siemens, Mitsubishi in Asia and Schneider in Australia. Just because the hardware is more readily available and you will find more local support for the packages.