The US has gone to hell and will probably stay there for eternity

Assuming that things are implemented "the right way", the issue comes down to how you value acceptable risk versus violation of implied rights (pesky inconvenience in most cases). It amuses me to see the vast differences in opinion between leitmotif and ArikBY. I think I side closer to leitmotif, but hey, I'm American too.

surferb said:

Assuming that things are implemented "the right way", the issue comes down to how you value acceptable risk versus violation of implied rights (pesky inconvenience in most cases). It amuses me to see the vast differences in opinion between leitmotif and ArikBY. I think I side closer to leitmotif, but hey, I'm American too.

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I grew up in England..i have the IRA to thank for my views...I do not remember Fire drills in my school years..just Bomb drills....

Before Sep 11,If you want to hijack a plane you don't need any think.
Grab knife from the business class and go to the ****pit.
Now all America hysterical and of course exaggerate.
The policy is not clear ,every state do what they think is right.
Some airport very easy Phoenix some horrible like Chicago(very
humiliating)
Over here if you are not Israeli expect hard time when you came or live.
We are here tolerate for all those security issues.(Hard experience.)
But.Search in data storage its like run after the wind.

And Maybe not to get it back....
Enough is enough.
Welcome to the United States of America

surferb said:

Assuming that things are implemented "the right way", the issue comes down to how you value acceptable risk versus violation of implied rights (pesky inconvenience in most cases). It amuses me to see the vast differences in opinion between leitmotif and ArikBY. I think I side closer to leitmotif, but hey, I'm American too.

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I even resent having to prove I am an American when I apply for a job. I was born and raised here, I did my duty and did a full six years military service, I have NOT gotten CAUGHT in any major infractions, I still qualify for a secret clearance. So why in H*** do I have to PROVE I am a good guy and entitled to work in my own damn country?

I think the difference between Arik and myself (and other Americans) is that Arik grew up with these concerns. We Americans were spoiled and are spoiled because we had not had a major 9 11. We have never been invaded. Israel has had them going on since 1948 if not longer. I remember reading in a novel (one of Clancy's ??) about a spy who was amazed at how simple it was to get into America and how stupid and trusting the Americans were. I smugly thought "that is one of the privileges of being free"

Here in Seattle your hand bag is searched for beercans when you go to a ballgame. Apparently several years ago some drunken clowns threw full cans over the audience in seats below them. OK that seems reasonable BUT taking off your shoes in the airport?

I dont think I would want a job as an electrician in the airport. What would they say about my pouch full of weapons ie screwdrivers, razor knife, etc etc.

OK we have had our problems ie the Unibomber, 911, the Tylenol fiasco, Ruby Ridge, Waco, them crazies up in Idaho, but they are in the vast minority. Heck we kill more people per year (I think) in industrial accidents and for sure in car accidents so what is the big deal with only 3,000 in 9 11? The last time we lost that many was Pearl Harbor in 45 and previous to that the Johnstown flood in 1900 or so. I admit it is a bit callous of me but so what if we lose 3,000 every 50 years or so. Heck we killed a hell of a lot more good guys in Nam. How many is it now in Iraq and Afganistan? And we do not seem to care a bit about those guys.

Why do we in the majority have to be affected by the minority?
Why is the tail so enabled to wag the dog?

I am so disgusted with this country. So why do I stay here? Because like Arik it is what I know and am mostly adapted to and for the most part am willing to accept (put up with). The other reason - as screwed up as we Yanks are I am still convinced we are still the best nation or in other words we are the cream of the **** -- C R A P -- OK OK I do not do well with PC.

I think the Serenety Prayer applies
1. God give me the serenity to accept what I cannot change
2. The courage to change what I can
3. The wisdom to know the difference.
I do pretty well with 1 and 2. I still have learning difficulties with 3.

Dan Bentler

leitmotif said:

I think the difference between Arik and myself (and other Americans) is that Arik grew up with these concerns. We Americans were spoiled and are spoiled because we had not had a major 9 11. We have never been invaded.

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Here in Seattle your hand bag is searched for beercans when you go to a ballgame. Apparently several years ago some drunken clowns threw full cans over the audience in seats below them. OK that seems reasonable BUT taking off your shoes in the airport?

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This I don't mind... removing my laptop is not the same as removing my shoes or searching my stuff, I don't mind the search

Why do we in the majority have to be affected by the minority?
Why is the tail so enabled to wag the dog?

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This is the only way that they can tell the difference, again I don't mind and I put up with it, but we need to stand up when it goes over the top

I am so disgusted with this country. So why do I stay here? Because like Arik it is what I know and am mostly adapted to and for the most part am willing to accept (put up with). The other reason - as screwed up as we Yanks are I am still convinced we are still the best nation or in other words we are the cream of the **** -- C R A P -- OK OK I do not do well with PC.

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Disgusted is a strong word, disappointed is more the way I feel, government is getting bigger and we are supporting it with our taxes and continuing to vote them into office, but we are choosing the lessor of the evils, no mater if you are a democrat or republican you have not had any good choices since Reagan

Just my comments on a Sunday morning

When I was coming home from Iraq from my last deployment, customs made my life miserable. I came home on a civilian flight. I'll start from the beginning of the flight. Got dropped off at Kuwait city airport, by a civilian contractor....U.S. military vehicles are not allowed inside of Kuwait city. My unit B2-18 from Fort Sill, wanted me to take all of my duffel bags. This made for one carry on (ruck sack) 6 duffel bags. Our government only allowed 2 and one carry on. So I had to pay 150 per bag for the flight back for the other 4. Kuwait customs emptied every bag, took a few things, got really upset over my frag vest. repacked it all, went and set at the terminal with all the other returning soldiers. Flight to Amsterdam was pleasant, cold but quiet. Holland customs took my laptop apart, emptied all bags. Next flight was into Detroit, U.S. customs emptied every bag, took my camera, which i still have not got back. But did put customs seals on the bags so that they didn't have to be emptied in Dallas. Flight to Dallas was pleasant, had a 30 minute layover to flight to Lawton. All seemed good until customs cut the seals dumped every bag again, seems they didn't like the fact that they could not see through the frag vest. I ended up leaving all 6 bags sitting at the airport with my gear all over the place. Made my flight with my gear coming in about 3 days later. Still have not got my camera back, laptop has been put back together and still operates. Never even got an explination as to why they took the camera. Oh and then for the cream of the experience, as I got off the plane, I had the privilage of getting hit with tomatoes and other stuff, as my wife stood in the back waving, whom I had not seen in 2 years. That part isn't customs fault, but the whole time I was thinking, they made my reentry misserable, and let these bozos in here, knowing what they were going to do.

I'm sorry to hear that, wirepuller. What's the story with the tomatoes?

Part of the problem is simply that the world has become smaller. We are no longer a stand-alone country, but have so many links with so many others, that it is difficult to maintain the same level of individual rights that we once had.

I blame the erosion of our rights (those granted in the Bill of Rights) on the U.S. Supreme Court. So many irresponsible, arrogant, weak, pin-headed judges have been appointed to the court that they no longer defend our rights, but do defend the so-called "rights" of non-citizen enemy combatants. It seems that the Court is more interested in proving that they are "in control" than they are in doing their duty to protect the rights of real American citizens.

they were from the church in Kansas the ones that hold up the signs saying God hates (insert bad name here). I can't remember the name of the church. But they were protesting.

Wirepuller,

I am sorry that happened to you. Thank you for defending our country.

A bunch of those protestors planned an event at my cousin's son-in-law's funeral (who was killed in Iraq). But about 100 large men of the local HOG (Harley Owner's Group) showed up and blocked the driveways to the funeral home and did not let any of those unrespecful, unappreciative idiots inside the parking lot. Boy, were they mad. Too bad.

Thank you. I am glad they were able to block them. The patriot guard is very strong in this area. Since I have retired, we go to as many functions as we can, to try and help.

Back to reality.....

The constitutional protections from unreasonable search & seizure do NOT apply to border crossings, and historically were never meant to.. Hence there is no law that was voted upon by your senators or representatives etc.

The ability to seize items at the border has always existed. 30 years ago I lost some scuba gear. When I was a kid my mother lost a vaccum cleaner.

The reality is that the chance your device will be sized is very remote. Consider the logistics of collecting tens of thousands of laptops, phones, PDAs etc, and scouring them all for nefarious data. However if you go out of the way to look or act the part, then expect to be inconvienenced.

Also the problem with this is that there's an easy get-around to move the info over the border without physically carrying it. That would be Email. Simply take a low end laptop, and eamil yourself your data. You can also use remote desktop.

Wirepuller,

It disgusts me to know that there are people who think that an acceptable form of protest is to throw things at the very people who put their lives on the line to defend their right to protest. It doesn't begin to make up for the indignities you've been subjected to, but this American says, "Thank you".

Whether or not we agree with the political decisions that put your unit in Iraq in the first place, we owe you big time for your sacrifices. You have done a difficult job under unspeakable conditions and you've done it with distinction.

elevmike said:

The constitutional protections from unreasonable search & seizure do NOT apply to border crossings, and historically were never meant to..

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I didn't see any exceptions for border crossing in the 4th admendment. Exactly what do they think they will find on a laptop? **** is not an national security issue. Secret plans will not be smuggled in on a laptop because it is easier to just send it over the interent. I would be more worried about what is smuggled out of the country as far as technology but that goes out over the internet too.

Hence there is no law that was voted upon by your senators or representatives etc.

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This is still another reason to vote libertarian.

The ability to seize items at the border has always existed. 30 years ago I lost some scuba gear.

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Yes drugs and such.

When I was a kid my mother lost a vaccum cleaner.

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That is simple theft. So a border guard that wants scuba gear for himself and a vacuum for his wife can just take either for no reason? What a racket. What does scuba gear and vacuum cleaners have to do with national security? I would have just emptied the vacuum cleaner right there.

Peter Nachtwey said:

I didn't see any exceptions for border crossing in the 4th admendment.

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Here is one reasonably and professionaly written review: http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/library/P1075.pdf The issue of The First Amendement is not always that simple and straightforward, isn't it? So is The Fourth.