Just a little curious

You can say this one again!
This is an ever lasting battle between myself and the folks that work on and install my machines and process installs. If I have half a dozen photoeyes that are labeled PE1563 and PE1573 and so on, to match the line numbers in the drawings. It makes me almost feel like going psyco when I come to the site and find the devices and wiring labeled all the way through as PE1, PE2.... Then they do the same with motors. Make up stupid names when the line number was already designated as the identifier.... I cant beat this into some people. Its a big deal on a large process and usually will haunt the system and its techs for its entire lifespan once up and running.

Big rant yeah, this has been the theme of the month(s) here!

Isn't this something that would be reason to withold payment?
 
Isn't this something that would be reason to withold payment?

Indeed. However, a lot of times, its in house guys. Even worse is the local contractors. They all make me shiver. They are construction electricians only and never get Industrial experience enough to follow panel and system drawings nor are they familiar with anything really controls related. Furthermore, the big guys don't care, nor do they know the difference, Just expect me to straighten it out and make it work. Always.
Besides, withholding payment would only cause more stress in my life as I really don't even think or care about the money side of it all, it has nothing to do with me and I don't want to deal with the resentment from contractors about money issues.

Its more apparent every single day. Good help is not only hard to find, but barely existent!


To the OP.... Your on a good track studying the machines. Even if the project doesn't take off. Studying and troubleshooting complex machine is how I got started in controls and automation and I never stopped. I wish more folks would go this route before trying to build a headache for somebody else with no care to label anything, document, certify or follow the rules of control cabinet and machine building. Seems to be the industry standard lately to send out **** machines that lack any of the above!
 
PLC Pie Guy, as a fellow Canaderpian, you mention following the rules of control cabinet and machine building, have you found anything specific to Canada, or do you just use UL508A?
 
ok i m with u on this thing, but keep in mind thisis hard journy, now first of all read all electrical schematic, then learn the operating mechanism,,, then convert every part of it in block diagram which shows its working in state machine e.g. uml diagram,, then implement procedure into relevant plc ladder
 
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PLC Pie Guy, as a fellow Canaderpian, you mention following the rules of control cabinet and machine building, have you found anything specific to Canada, or do you just use UL508A?

Actually I have the CSA standards. Id have to go look at the exact publication number, but yes, it ultimately aligns with UL508A.

The rules I'm referring to...

Label the components in the panel.
Spacing between components is important.
Don't use up 101% of the space and then start mounting on the inside of the door....
IP address and versions on everything preferably labeled or in a drawing somewhere.
Don't put Ethernet / low voltage and high voltage in the same trays.
Bond your cabinets and doors.
Don't mix and match brands of components, sure suits the builders needs but makes a maintenance nightmare on site.
Don't put all DC power on the same circuit without even using a main DC fuse, this drives me nuts, I separate and fuse all DC power to the specific circuits they service!
Size conductors according to the NEC.
Use tray, not simply sticky backs and tie wraps.
Test your panels so they are not riddled with mistakes!
Provide drawings!

Just the few things you notice when you first open a cabinet. Not even all rules per say, but certainly a person must be able to take some pride in their work. The machine that was just delivered to us is almost embarrassing to say the least. I'm living through a nightmare startup now for these dumb asses that broke every single rule on this list. To make matters worse, they cant come onsite to commission their own junk, so guess who is the lucky guy!

Their big excuse is the other department did that, we didn't have time to review it! So its now our problem? Sounds like a company that bit off more than they can chew and should sub out their panel building to me. Id blow their doors completely off in this game. Without all the wiring mistakes and lack of care.

Even my CSA inspector is impressed with my cabinets and sends me customers sometimes. To bad I cant catch a good customer though that would keep me somewhat busy building panels and get me out my day to day routine at the plant.. I only get to do a few a year outside the plant as I just cant seem to drum up the business. Its a small town/province here though with only a few established production facilities in the area. I'm hoping one day to find that OEM that likes my work to partner with and will take me to full time panel building for myself. Iv done a few control systems now for the Forestry machines locally, I was hoping it would catch on as the machines are so cool. Those guys hate spending money though.
Perhaps its a pipe dream but one can always hope.
 
well nice to know this but i am referring to actual converting this machine into plc control, simple follow these rules,
how many buttons are in there, refer them to input device
how many sensors , proximity , beet etc refer them into input devices
how many motors, refer them to output devices
how many solenoids valves , refer them to output devices
then study timing controls, e.g. when a output device starts and how much it is started with accumulating input device refer them into timers in plc
hope you got the picture of it , what u say...?
 
I think posters here have given you many ideas, I will just re-iterate (and possibly add, however, I have not read all replies).
Get the existing control schematic and come up with a minimum I/O list, think about extra I/O for improvements, allow at least 10% for future expansion.
Think about what you don't need, i.e. if fitting an HMI, probably do not need as many buttons (I/O).
Come up with a requirement spec (what it needs to do), create a functional specification (how it will work). Think about the components (what spec does the company use i.e. PLC/HMI type and other components), if they have no spec try & come up with one, suggest use components/suppliers that you have a good relationship with and components that are readily available.
In the past I have done this many times, at one point I was given 3 projects to look at even though I was sure they would not go ahead, I did everything from design & producing documentation including writing & simulating the process. To my surprise the largest one went ahead, how surprised they were when I said I was ready for the mech/elec could go ahead as everything was ready, a bonus was it improved my understanding of the process.

Everything parky said! This will help your future as much as your boss's :)
How many pumps are you controlling? A good reason for an HMI would be to select the units under control, so that you can skip an inoperative pump in the rotation. Also fault annunciation, and easy access to duration and period timing. Good Luck!
 
do . not . forget . or . underestimate . the . safety . aspect !!

Agree completely!! These pumps would start up automatically at anytime.
Every pump motor should have a LOCKABLE field safety disconnect at or near the motor (which also indicates a possible need for a PLC input from each disconnect.)
And try to emphasize LOTO mentality in the maintenance department, if it's not already present as a part of their routine procedure.
 
Everything parky said! This will help your future as much as your boss's :)
How many pumps are you controlling? A good reason for an HMI would be to select the units under control, so that you can skip an inoperative pump in the rotation. Also fault annunciation, and easy access to duration and period timing. Good Luck!

There will only be 12 pumps. I say only because there are 6 loops in the system so each loop has one spare pump. Since the electrical schematics on this system are current (all ready verified) the change to PLC should be fairly simple and including the existing fault/alarm system can be cleaned up a little. I can also finally add a few things to the alarm notification that I have talked with my boss about for a while.

I do appreciate everbody's input. There were a few things brought up that I had not considered but are now noted so I do not forget to look into them.
 
OP said: "We have a machine setup that my boss would like to automate with a PLC and maybe an HMI."
BOSS wants his co. and employees to get familiar with PLC controls, to everyone's benefit. It's Opportunity knocking on the door!
 

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